Help wanted Identification of Katars

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2005, 10:33 PM

Yes rather like carpenters and other skilled persons marks from many trades that mean nothing to those not involved. Tim

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2005, 07:23 AM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the call!!!

I cant really add a lot to what Jens has beautifully explained concerning arsenal and armoury markings, but we have tried to accomplish gathering data on them before, unfortunately there really is very little data.

The Bikaner armoury, which is being discussed here, seems to have the most distinctive and numerous items, characterized by these punch dot script inscriptions. Some other Mughal items seem to have inscriptions that may be arsenal markings with dates or numerics, but these are not catalogued or otherwise collected.

Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual" p.30) describes the Wodeyar Armoury in Mysore, where Krishnaraja Wodeyar III (1799-1868) ordered an inventory and pieces numbered and inscribed in 'kannada' script, naming the object and noting his title, 'Srikishna'.

Hopefully those out there with Indian weapons that have distinct markings might post them here!!

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 11th September 2005, 12:01 PM

Hi Rick,

It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far.

Hi Jim,

Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

geneacom · 11th September 2005, 09:22 PM

hello everyone,
I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones.
One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think.
Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here.
So keep watching ...

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2005, 10:52 PM

Hi Jens,
You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others.

I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form.

Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy!

Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!!

All the best,
Jim

geneacom · 12th September 2005, 01:01 AM

Well, here's something coming.

geneacom · 12th September 2005, 01:37 AM

This is a large one, the ruler is 30 cm long!

geneacom · 14th September 2005, 11:20 PM

The last week I have published 4 photosets of katars from different viewpoints.
That's what everybody was asking for.
Up until now, not a single reaction.
Nobody interested anymore?
That's a pity, because I have another 25 katars waiting to be photographed.

If there is no reaction at all, I wil stop and save myself the trouble of making all these pictures, put them all together and publish them!
Rob van Willigen (Geneacom)

spiral · 15th September 2005, 12:12 AM

Thanks for your time & effort Rob!

I have found this a fascinating thread, especialy your photos & the discusian re armoury marks.

I am jealous of such a museam quality collection!

I would imagine this group of katars is the envy of anyone who collects katars.

Spiral

11th September 2005, 09:22 PM	#4
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	new pictures of Katars hello everyone, I made new digital pictures of my brothers' katars and some extra ones. One of the extra is a very large katar and the other one is a very old one, I think. Right now I am preparing the pictures for publishing here. So keep watching ...

12th September 2005, 01:01 AM	#6
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	Well, here's something coming. Attached Images Last edited by geneacom; 12th September 2005 at 01:31 AM.

12th September 2005, 01:37 AM	#7
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	This is a large one, the ruler is 30 cm long! Attached Images Last edited by geneacom; 12th September 2005 at 01:52 AM.

14th September 2005, 11:20 PM	#8
geneacom Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17	New pictures The last week I have published 4 photosets of katars from different viewpoints. That's what everybody was asking for. Up until now, not a single reaction. Nobody interested anymore? That's a pity, because I have another 25 katars waiting to be photographed. If there is no reaction at all, I wil stop and save myself the trouble of making all these pictures, put them all together and publish them! Rob van Willigen (Geneacom) Last edited by geneacom; 14th September 2005 at 11:33 PM.

9th September 2005, 10:33 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Yes rather like carpenters and other skilled persons marks from many trades that mean nothing to those not involved. Tim

11th September 2005, 07:23 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Rick, Thanks for the call!!! I cant really add a lot to what Jens has beautifully explained concerning arsenal and armoury markings, but we have tried to accomplish gathering data on them before, unfortunately there really is very little data. The Bikaner armoury, which is being discussed here, seems to have the most distinctive and numerous items, characterized by these punch dot script inscriptions. Some other Mughal items seem to have inscriptions that may be arsenal markings with dates or numerics, but these are not catalogued or otherwise collected. Robert Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual" p.30) describes the Wodeyar Armoury in Mysore, where Krishnaraja Wodeyar III (1799-1868) ordered an inventory and pieces numbered and inscribed in 'kannada' script, naming the object and noting his title, 'Srikishna'. Hopefully those out there with Indian weapons that have distinct markings might post them here!! All the best, Jim

11th September 2005, 12:01 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, It is an interesting double marking you have on your tulwar, it is seldom to see double markings on weapons. It could be an owner’s name, and an armoury mark added later, or it could be two different armoury markings – but this is only speculation so far. Hi Jim, Your quotation of Elgood is very good, as it is very seldom to find a quotation like that. One thing I forgot to mention earlier is, that besides a number, the text can give the name of the owner of the armoury or the name of the armoury itself, but in most cases it is likely that the text has been abbreviated, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to be sure from which armoury the weapons came, as we now only know of some of the armouries – armouries closed for many years are long forgotten, although we may find weapons marked in one of these places. We must also remember that many different languages were/are spoken in India, and to be able to read the text, you will have to know the language it is written in.

11th September 2005, 10:52 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Jens, You're right, it is remarkably difficult to try to read or decipher armoury or arsenal markings because of the varying dialects and alphabetics. Even more confounding is the fact that such markings are typically the result of often reluctant bureaucratic tediom, inventorying. I cannot think of anyone who ever looked forward to 'inventory'! Thus the result of diminishing accuracy and omissions etc. The abbreviations and numbers can only have made sense to those directly involved in that particular armory and period. There was no standardization or system employed outside that armory and by others. I recall some time ago trying to discover the meaning of such a marking on a Chinese sabre, which was apparantly inscribed in Manchu. Hoping for some meaningful, telling mark I pursued having it translated, not easily done as this is apparantly elusive these days in Chinese linguistics. When finally it was done all that could be determined was a vague interpretation of 'tempered steel' or 'good steel' or something of that form. Even European military weapons are maddening in trying to discover the significance of key placed little letters and numbers and symbols in all manner of places on weapons. With these one is always hoping to find regimental attribution, but with such markings there is the one constant...inconsistancy! Looking forward to seeing these next photos Geneacom!!! All the best, Jim

15th September 2005, 12:12 AM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for your time & effort Rob! I have found this a fascinating thread, especialy your photos & the discusian re armoury marks. I am jealous of such a museam quality collection! I would imagine this group of katars is the envy of anyone who collects katars. Spiral