A Good Musketeer's Rapier, Probably Saxony, ca. 1600

[fernando]

Amazing how even specialists are influenced by the charismatic term.
The following is a video link posted by cannonmm in this recent thread .
Despite the background noise, we can clearly hear Mr. Hoover telling the little girl that, the sword he picked up to show her, a typical wide fuelered double edged cuphilt sword is: a Spanish or Italian rapier !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo8TRPNTvLM


.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I think that it is axiomatic that a sword's type/name is determined by its function rather than its appearance.

In this respect rapiers are rather tricky, because their function is generally poorly understood, yet their appearance overlaps with that of many other swords on account of the elaborate hilt and thrust predisposed blade. So I fear that the practice of calling any sword fitted with a complex hilt or a slim thrusting blade a rapier will be with us for a long time to come.

In any event, there is little logical consistency in how swords types are named, so why do we expect the public at large to adhere to an inadequately defined convention? I mean, "swords" is a class/set that includes all hand held cut&thrust weapons, longer than knives, yet we call what in reality is a short rapier a "small sword" - Now, how irrational is that?

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... I think that it is axiomatic that a sword's type/name is determined by its function rather than its appearance....

Oh, i have never put it that way. On an instant basis i think of (several)otherwise situations ... if i understand what you mean .

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... So I fear that the practice of calling any sword fitted with a complex hilt or a slim thrusting blade a rapier will be with us for a long time to come... In any event, there is little logical consistency in how swords types are named, so why do we expect the public at large to adhere to an inadequately defined convention? ...

I am with you Chris but, if you are (also) referring to my post 17#, let me emphasize that the narrator in the video is not properly 'public at large' and the sword he shows has no elaborate hilt but simply and purely a bowl and straight quillons

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

I am with you Chris but, if you are (also) referring to my post 17#, let me emphasize that the narrator in the video is not properly 'public at large' and the sword he shows has no elaborate hilt but simply and purely a bowl and straight quillons

Well, he went by appearances and was completely ignorant of the function of rapiers.

As far as cup hilts go, we have another difficulty: Are they complex hilts? I suppose they are more complex than simple cross quillons, but then what are we to make of the Gothic hilt on a sabre? OK then, maybe a cup alone is not complex enough, but when it is found in combination with quillons, and even a knuckle bow? I don't know, but can see a large degree of arbitrariness.

Probably what we need is some authority to lay down a comprehensive convention and then the rest of us will be forced to adhere to it, or else risk looking like ignoramuses

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... or else risk looking like ignoramuses ...

Oh, i like the term .
It reminds me of an academic friend i had, who fancied using a similar term: ignaro.
God save the Latin

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I was going to write ignorami instead of ignoramuses, but decided not to, just in case someone would write in and inquire if it was an esoteric Japanese paper folding craft!

Cheers
Chris