A gamble, your opinion?

Sajen · 25th July 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.

Thank you Alan, this is what I want to know.

Regards,

Detlef

DAHenkel · 25th July 2012, 04:10 PM

Agree with Alan more or less. I was in Jakarta '85 - 86 and remember seing quite a few of these. Quite variable in quality from fairly good - like yours, all the way to hideous. The big difference these days is that the top end of the market has improved markedly. Your pieces was about as good as it got in those days. Today, there are newly made pieces that rival the artistry of the great old pieces. Wasn't a lot of that around in the mid-Eighties...at least, not on Jalan Surabaya ;o)

rasjid · 30th July 2012, 12:29 AM

Hi Detlef,

As mentioned previously, this is newly made and still available in the market. It is a good keris and fittings for the price paid (i dont know how much they charge for postage), you are doing allright

Some people pay even more in Jakarta. Especially people who never connected on the Internet.

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
This is brass under neath as Jane mentioned (Green Stuff). Some newer model comes with additional gold n Silver also.

Regards
Rasjid

Sajen · 30th July 2012, 11:23 AM

Dave and Rasjid,

thank you both for the additional informations.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 30th July 2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
Regards
Rasjid

Attached is the picture of a probably recent blade with 22Kt? gold kinatah on a brass base. I realized it recently because the kinatah is peeling off at one corner due to the lack of care from myself so I could see the underlying brass base, but the gold coating is quite thick actually. Your comments will be welcome.
Regards

Sajen · 30th July 2012, 05:34 PM

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality!

Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Jean · 30th July 2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality!

Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Rasjid,
I never saw such a kinatah motif before so I suppose that it was created from the imagination of the maker but I find it very decorative. The quality of the kinatah is not excellent but still quite good IMO and the amount of gold is significant.
I agree that I should replace the pendok blewah by a closed one but it needs to be golden colour for matching with the kinatah blade and I did not find a suitable one yet (only bling-bling pieces).
Rasjid, we should not discuss about price or value in this forum, let me just say that I paid the price of a brand new Mercedes Benz for this piece but a miniature one!

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2012, 12:14 AM

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation.

It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold.

It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass.

It must be gold.

It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced.

Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect.

In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

rasjid · 30th July 2012, 05:55 PM

Hi Jean,

From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made.

If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No.

For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it.

I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here.

Rasjid

[IMG]http://[/IMG]

David · 30th July 2012, 06:43 PM

Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris".
From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?

30th July 2012, 12:29 AM	#3
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Detlef, As mentioned previously, this is newly made and still available in the market. It is a good keris and fittings for the price paid (i dont know how much they charge for postage), you are doing allright Some people pay even more in Jakarta. Especially people who never connected on the Internet. Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris. This is brass under neath as Jane mentioned (Green Stuff). Some newer model comes with additional gold n Silver also. Regards Rasjid Last edited by rasjid; 30th July 2012 at 01:38 AM.

30th July 2012, 05:55 PM	#9
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Jean, From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made. If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No. For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it. I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here. Rasjid [IMG]http://[/IMG] Last edited by rasjid; 30th July 2012 at 06:14 PM.

25th July 2012, 04:10 PM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Agree with Alan more or less. I was in Jakarta '85 - 86 and remember seing quite a few of these. Quite variable in quality from fairly good - like yours, all the way to hideous. The big difference these days is that the top end of the market has improved markedly. Your pieces was about as good as it got in those days. Today, there are newly made pieces that rival the artistry of the great old pieces. Wasn't a lot of that around in the mid-Eighties...at least, not on Jalan Surabaya ;o)

30th July 2012, 11:23 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Dave and Rasjid, thank you both for the additional informations. Regards, Detlef

30th July 2012, 05:34 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Hello Jean, nice keris of good quality! Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras. Best regards, Detlef

31st July 2012, 12:14 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design. It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation. It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold. It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass. It must be gold. It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced. Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect. In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

30th July 2012, 06:43 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris". From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?