European Archery/ Agincourt/crecy/etc

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by kronckew

castles had oak doors. and wood shutters on windows & crenelations.

if they could get thru 4in. of oak, i wonder how effective they were against a crossbowman's pavise (below). crossbows while powerful in the short ranges had an abysmal rate of fire. the french hired milanese crossbowmen to counter the english archers, then never deployed them effectively, in fact tending to dismiss them and even trampling them in their eagerness to charge the english peasant trash who dared try to fight their superiors, the elite french aristocrats. the battle of poitiers was another example. the english feigned retreat on one flank, then when the french charged, they showered them with arrows. they reported arrows glancing off the improved armour of the french, so they shot the horses instead, their armour being thinner on the horses flanks. even the french cavalry themselves had soft spots in the armour at joints & visor openings, and the bowmen were good enough to hit them at closer ranges.

p.s. - i did initially mention the welsh wales is about 10 miles west of where i live.

Absolutely.
A horse is a nice big target and even the best trained horse isn't running anywhere with a couple of yard long arrows stuck in it.
And nice heavy 'improved' armour is great when you are on horseback, not so great when you are trying to roll clear as the horse falls or as you try to struggle to your feet and move through a muddy field.

[kronckew]

yes, eddie 5 picked his ground well (it was not an accident like it seemed in the clip posted above) and deployed his troops well. the french, secure in their hubris, wined and dined the night before, knowing their superior forces would win the next day. the clip also mentions the killing of the french captives, but never mentioned the french attack on the english baggage area and their slaughter of the women and children there which did not make ed any less likely to kill the prisoners.

the english also chose their ground and deployment well at crecy and poitiers, so it was not mere chance. even as far back as the romans, they knew how to defeat a superior numbered force. look what Suetonius did to boudica at their last battle, 10,000 romans slaughtered 80,000 battle hardened iceni warriors by again funnelling them with the choice of the battlefield and his deployment to the point their mass of warriors couldn't find room to move their arms, and further complicated by the brits leaving their baggage and women/children across their line of retreat, where they again bunched up and were further slaughtered. the romans supposedly only lost 400.

heavily armoured troops charging a prepared defensive line uphill will tire them out and put them at a disadvantage. a fact well known then and eons before.

another factor not mentioned was the english army did not breeze thru harfleur, it was a tough siege where many died of the flux (dysentery) and most of the english suffered from the bad water and food and were in pretty bad shape at the time of the battle. he might have gone to france with 6000, but a goodly portion died at harfleur and the march to agincourt without getting near a battle.

the french could have won without a battle just by continuing to deflect them off course from le harve and blocking them from any food and clean water.

it's not superior weapons that win battles, it's how they are used and where and under what conditions. strategy, logistics, tactics, and good leaders wins - with a bit of luck thrown in.

a logistical tid-bit, Edward 5th ordered two million arrows a few years before his expedition to france. he was pretty good at planning ahead.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ Im told that the English used goose grease on their arrows which greatly cut down the air resistance and thus increased their impact on target speed enabling an armour piercing effect (in addition to the felling of French knights in heavy armour thus tripping and bringing down several others and adding to the mayhem at Agincourt) Interestingly the Turkish foot-bow was capable of ranges well in excess of the English / Welsh (Portuguese Yew) cruising out to ranges of 700 plus metres.. but the two systems never actually coming into combat contact with each other.
Anyone got any pictures of the Turkish gear?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

the russian gal in my initial post was using a recurved horsebow similar to the turkish/mongol/korean/hungarian ones used for centuries on the open plains and steppes.

the bow extensions, sayahs, as well as the laminated horn and sinew construction provided extra power and allowed shorter bows to be pulled further, more suitable for use on horseback. the bows were also much harder to make, required constant attention to prevent them from twisting and taking a bad set. many took three years or so to build. a long bow could be made in less than a day. the arrows used by the turks for distance shooting contests were a sophisticated and aerodynamicly advanced, lightweight and barely feathered bone tipped version of an arrow, a far cry from the more deadly arrows used in war. turkish records indicate 950+ yards. Ref: Linky

the one she is using in post #1 is as was noted likely of a low draw weight compared to top english bows, but the design allows it to hit above it's weight, so to say. in other words it's lighter pull over a longer distance gives the arrow similar energy as an arrow from a heavier bow over a shorter pull distance. it obviously has a rate of fire higher as well. modern ones with modern glues and materials are not as fussy as the older horn bows, and withstand weather a lot better.

old turkish bow, unstrung. lots of fun to string it. involves warming the limbs, careful pressure on both limbs, slight twists and pressures to prevent it twisting and a lot of strength, followed by further corrections to any twists in the bow. after use should be immediately unstrung and never left strung.


Stringing an extremely curved horsebow
How to cheat when stringing a turkish bow
the video shows using a kemend, a wide silk belt on a modern hungarian horsebow. the suggested videos on the right offer even more insight.

eastern europeans, mongols, arabs, persians, mongols, japanese, etc seemed to prefer lamellar armour with some plate, sometimes out of hardened leather, to the full plate of the west, possibly less protective but more manoeuvrable. also one reason given for the french losing at agincourt was the archers lighter armour allowing them to move around better, especially in the mud. those visors that kept out the arrows were horribly restrictive for breathing, let alone trying to see the little devil with the lead mallet trying to bash you in the helmet.

interesting comment on the goose grease. the tests i've seen are all unlubricated. modern armour piercing small arms rounds have a teflon coating to pierce kevlar vests, where similar un-teflonned rounds do not comes to mind.