Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Rivkin · 29th December 2004, 05:32 AM

The thing I wondered about is how much in adoption of Hussar sabre was a polish influence, and how much was a turkish/middle eastern influence. One can made a good case that turks used to constantly face european armies, and it would be as natural for the latter ones to adopt turkish/mameluk weaponry, as to adapt a polish version of originally turkish weaponry.

USMC Mameluk sword is probably not a typical case, but that's the one for which the mameluk roots are unambigious.

P.S. It would be almost certain that russian and caucasian swords would for example be influenced by both western and eastern versions - for each shashka with a gurda or "owka" blade one can find an iranian shamshir.

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th December 2004, 09:06 AM

Wolviex: My dearest friend, your thoughts dont sound like a plan... I think you should do it and we all should contribute ... I am just so excited to rejoice forces with ones that have similar heritage and interests and I much feel like after that long, darn years of Iron Curtain clichee crap, I want to open the eyes of the rest of the world (and to or own people too) to look no further for the glory and beauty then in own garden; I truely believe anyway that in the next years one amazing eastern Europe will be part of new Renaissance Era and will be a one verry merry EU ... avant-garde just watch !
I think there should be a larger, more aware pan-Eastearn European conscience to better serve our interests and manage our potential ... how about a future new encyclopedic book on the weaponry and the military costume of our part of the world, since its so rich in heritage ...
Well, maybe its time I should wake up now

On a side note, I think the world, art, history in general makes a bit too much of the ,,West,, as being the Old continent leaving the rest in shade ...
What can I say : while in the left hand, Mother Europa carried its defensive shield , in the right arm she had plenty of room for an oportunistic glorious sword, right ? ...
Just like Americans say : remember Alamo ! ... we should shout : remember Vienna !!! `cause today, otherwise, Bin Laden might`ve been just as well Belgian and be not so famous

...
And let me say : those koncerz you posted are really sweet , the exact ,,a-la-carte,, classical in every detail, perfectly preserved, just like they wouldve dismounted off the classical paintings !

Rivkin: I am not sugesting the Eastern Europe as the ,,ground of transition,, for the modern saber , they are

the makers of the modern saber ! Western Europe was nothing but the ones that adopted a superb, finished and succesfull product ... The proto-type of the modern saber and the inspiration was undoubtely like I mentioned the Turkic scimitars introduced in Europe via invasions.
Myself, I can think of the Turkoman nations as the great-grandfather of it but definatelly they cannot claim the parenthood of modern curved saber ...
If we would write a brief history about the making of this weapon, one could dispense of the Asian prototype theories but cannot avoid in anyway the Hungaro-Polish testimony ...
A somehow off-line paralel can be made with Japanese swords : the proto-types undoubtely were Koreean & Chinese straight swords evolving into what became the katana (nin-to if you preffer...) , should one really wonder how Chinese a Katana or a Wakizashi is ... Can China really claim the nin-to, even though she was the craddle ?[/FONT]

Jim M. : I admire your persuasive nature and help with offering the sources of the ilustrations I used, perfectly right on the very detail, just like you were next to me when I scanned them ! I must`ve had you nervously pulling a few books around and refresh your French until you nailed it, did I

?
P.S. Thank you for researching and confirming my notes, I feel more confident now that I have you on my side ( if there is another side anyway ...). As far as the Alanic-Avaric variation, I wouldnt sweat it so much, sometimes things are just way too bloody ancient and arguments are too damn vague... I dont feel like digging here, I`ll rather try to track the exact times when other countries started adopting the modern saber when exactly it crossed borders in Austria (very soon in this one case, anyway) and when in Germany, France, Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, USA and so on ...
Oh, and I want to see that Rembrandt painting otherwise i`ll get no sleep and you are personally responsible !!! And I mean it !

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th December 2004, 11:06 AM

Hey, I found it , I found it !!! REMBRANDT - The Polish Rider ... how splendid ... thank you Jim McDougall ! Here is a close up of the soldier itself with his weapons showing very good : we see the Oriental recurved bow (luk) and arrows (strzala) with sajdak quiver of undeniable Turko-Tartaric origins (I hope Rivkin reads this...) , the Hungaro-Polish szablye on left hip , in his right hand the war-hammer known as nadzaik and tucked in the saddle is the koncerz. He wears a zupan (long inner coat) and a kolpak fur hat...
We can`t blame the man (n. - Rembrandt) for trying, however, a few abnormalities exude, mainly and most important the koncerz (I know he meant to put a darn koncerz not a saber there !) is curved and ha an uncharacteristic monture (I think I am too picky after all)...
Wolviex, how did I do with the Polish names and what do you think about this painting ? I say very nice but not perfect ... szlachty without a mustache, I dont think so

!

wolviex · 29th December 2004, 02:12 PM

Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a lot about it (there was hard discussion between him and western experts which disagreed with him saying it's not Polish rider, but he proved it) so I can search notes about it, to not repeating that what was said before. I read about it long time ago, and I just don't remember, but isn't it rider called Lisowczyk ?. This was light cavalry under the command of colonel Lisowski, which during Polish-Russian war occupied Moscow with Polish army in 1610? - I'll check it.

It's a sabre not koncerz under the leg. I'm, not sure for now if Rembrandt wanted to put it there. Koncerz, as I wrote it earlier, was under left leg.

Radu, your Polish is sehr gut

. The only problem is the lack of Polish letters. Arrows you can write strzaly because strzala is singular. The saber is szabla not szablye and this war-hammer is nadziak. And I wouldn't be so convinced about mustache - it's a young boy anyway, and I didn't hear about sticked hairs in 17th c. Poland

Rivkin · 29th December 2004, 03:04 PM

hm. Again, I'm not exactly convinced. If it was so much an eastern european weapon, why only very few of them where in fact produced there ? At least the ones I've seen are mostly solingen. Am I wrong on this ?

Concerning chinese/japanese - japanese old straight swords are little bit more different from tachi (katana is a relatively new weapon) than kiliji from a hussar's sabre. In fact there is such thing as late chinese swords, imitating japanese technologies, and yes in this case I'll say without any doubdts that their origin is in Japan.

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th December 2004, 06:24 PM

Wolviex: A bit of a Tartaric fashioned Pole but definatelly one, as far as mustaches i`ve seen no old illustrations with Polack dudes without one (so is Hungary with the exception of King Matthias Corvinus and the Catholical clerics) regardless it was pandur, pancerny, huszaria, szlachta, hajdouks and so on ... what about Pan Wolodjowsky, shaking his right and left all the time... ?

Rivkin: its OK to stake out personal skepticism but how about most logical thing where were the first modern curved sabers (with classical elements) manufactured ? The first Hussars saber produced in the West like anyone would rationally expect was in Austria (probably Styria) after late 16th century, why because Eastearn European hussard brough it up there; probably Wolviex (he works for the National History Museum in Krakow, Poland as assistant-curator ) could tell you likely how made in Solingen the Hungarian-Polish hussar swords were...

sorry, not the case until much later...
As far as the other geographical extreme, look at the photos 15, 16, 17, where in middle East have you seen before montures like that ?

Are those Ottoman or any Middle Eastearn sabers

? I really dont think I need to bring more proof in support ... Curved sabers (scimitar family) where brought five hundred years before Ottoman incursions and the scimitar itself is not an Ottoman invented produvt but the Pala and perhaps the Kilij too were ! Sabers like the Ottoman scimitars were produced in oriental-(ised) Europe massively, specially in the conquered teritories, including Hungary after the lost battle of Mohacs when much ground was under Ottoman rule and thats one related thing but different. They had a great impact and were exactly appreciated by many until late in history and between Berlin and Istanbul sometimes its harder to tell where it begun and where it ended than in case of Japan of course (a one minded, self sufficient, closed to foreigners, separated island would have its track better printed, no doubt)...
Its really not a shallow theory but a fact ... and there werent only a few but tons of them produced, mass production enough to equip armies, just probably you havent got chance to see them, I did ...

Rivkin · 30th December 2004, 02:19 AM

I'm not trying to prove that eastern european or polish sabre was not a precursor to a modern sabre, but I believe it's much more complicated than this - solingen and passau weapon production technologies, spanish moore influence, turks, mongols and etc. are all involved in this story.

Concerning guards - picture B shows typical muslim guard. Picture 16 - is it a mix of nimcha and karabela

? Picture 18 - seen many times on shamshirs.
Picture 17 is unique, but unfortunately this type of guard did not survive (I think ?) in post-Blucher times, and does not appear on all regulation patterns before it. Is it the only thing they did - they invented new guards for old swords ?

Again I would really see something of a common turkish (like in seljuk-mongol-ottoman) origin, and try to understand what are the changes in _blades_ that been made.

P.P.S. I constantly have arguments with caucasians who come with great classification of "foreign" iranian shamshir vs. "authentic" caucasian shashkas with the same idea that it's so hard to say definitely "here is something that have never seen before" - shashka is nothing more than a guard's type...

29th December 2004, 09:06 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wolviex: My dearest friend, your thoughts dont sound like a plan... I think you should do it and we all should contribute ... I am just so excited to rejoice forces with ones that have similar heritage and interests and I much feel like after that long, darn years of Iron Curtain clichee crap, I want to open the eyes of the rest of the world (and to or own people too) to look no further for the glory and beauty then in own garden; I truely believe anyway that in the next years one amazing eastern Europe will be part of new Renaissance Era and will be a one verry merry EU ... avant-garde just watch ! I think there should be a larger, more aware pan-Eastearn European conscience to better serve our interests and manage our potential ... how about a future new encyclopedic book on the weaponry and the military costume of our part of the world, since its so rich in heritage ... Well, maybe its time I should wake up now On a side note, I think the world, art, history in general makes a bit too much of the ,,West,, as being the Old continent leaving the rest in shade ... What can I say : while in the left hand, Mother Europa carried its defensive shield , in the right arm she had plenty of room for an oportunistic glorious sword, right ? ... Just like Americans say : remember Alamo ! ... we should shout : remember Vienna !!! `cause today, otherwise, Bin Laden might`ve been just as well Belgian and be not so famous ... And let me say : those koncerz you posted are really sweet , the exact ,,a-la-carte,, classical in every detail, perfectly preserved, just like they wouldve dismounted off the classical paintings ! Rivkin: I am not sugesting the Eastern Europe as the ,,ground of transition,, for the modern saber , they are the makers of the modern saber ! Western Europe was nothing but the ones that adopted a superb, finished and succesfull product ... The proto-type of the modern saber and the inspiration was undoubtely like I mentioned the Turkic scimitars introduced in Europe via invasions. Myself, I can think of the Turkoman nations as the great-grandfather of it but definatelly they cannot claim the parenthood of modern curved saber ... If we would write a brief history about the making of this weapon, one could dispense of the Asian prototype theories but cannot avoid in anyway the Hungaro-Polish testimony ... A somehow off-line paralel can be made with Japanese swords : the proto-types undoubtely were Koreean & Chinese straight swords evolving into what became the katana (nin-to if you preffer...) , should one really wonder how Chinese a Katana or a Wakizashi is ... Can China really claim the nin-to, even though she was the craddle ?[/FONT] Jim M. : I admire your persuasive nature and help with offering the sources of the ilustrations I used, perfectly right on the very detail, just like you were next to me when I scanned them ! I must`ve had you nervously pulling a few books around and refresh your French until you nailed it, did I ? P.S. Thank you for researching and confirming my notes, I feel more confident now that I have you on my side ( if there is another side anyway ...). As far as the Alanic-Avaric variation, I wouldnt sweat it so much, sometimes things are just way too bloody ancient and arguments are too damn vague... I dont feel like digging here, I`ll rather try to track the exact times when other countries started adopting the modern saber when exactly it crossed borders in Austria (very soon in this one case, anyway) and when in Germany, France, Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, USA and so on ... Oh, and I want to see that Rembrandt painting otherwise i`ll get no sleep and you are personally responsible !!! And I mean it ! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th December 2004 at 12:42 PM.

29th December 2004, 11:06 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Hey, I found it , I found it !!! REMBRANDT - The Polish Rider ... how splendid ... thank you Jim McDougall ! Here is a close up of the soldier itself with his weapons showing very good : we see the Oriental recurved bow (luk) and arrows (strzala) with sajdak quiver of undeniable Turko-Tartaric origins (I hope Rivkin reads this...) , the Hungaro-Polish szablye on left hip , in his right hand the war-hammer known as nadzaik and tucked in the saddle is the koncerz. He wears a zupan (long inner coat) and a kolpak fur hat... We can`t blame the man (n. - Rembrandt) for trying, however, a few abnormalities exude, mainly and most important the koncerz (I know he meant to put a darn koncerz not a saber there !) is curved and ha an uncharacteristic monture (I think I am too picky after all)... Wolviex, how did I do with the Polish names and what do you think about this painting ? I say very nice but not perfect ... szlachty without a mustache, I dont think so ! Attached Images Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th December 2004 at 01:03 PM.

29th December 2004, 06:24 PM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Wolviex: A bit of a Tartaric fashioned Pole but definatelly one, as far as mustaches i`ve seen no old illustrations with Polack dudes without one (so is Hungary with the exception of King Matthias Corvinus and the Catholical clerics) regardless it was pandur, pancerny, huszaria, szlachta, hajdouks and so on ... what about Pan Wolodjowsky, shaking his right and left all the time... ? Rivkin: its OK to stake out personal skepticism but how about most logical thing where were the first modern curved sabers (with classical elements) manufactured ? The first Hussars saber produced in the West like anyone would rationally expect was in Austria (probably Styria) after late 16th century, why because Eastearn European hussard brough it up there; probably Wolviex (he works for the National History Museum in Krakow, Poland as assistant-curator ) could tell you likely how made in Solingen the Hungarian-Polish hussar swords were... sorry, not the case until much later... As far as the other geographical extreme, look at the photos 15, 16, 17, where in middle East have you seen before montures like that ? Are those Ottoman or any Middle Eastearn sabers ? I really dont think I need to bring more proof in support ... Curved sabers (scimitar family) where brought five hundred years before Ottoman incursions and the scimitar itself is not an Ottoman invented produvt but the Pala and perhaps the Kilij too were ! Sabers like the Ottoman scimitars were produced in oriental-(ised) Europe massively, specially in the conquered teritories, including Hungary after the lost battle of Mohacs when much ground was under Ottoman rule and thats one related thing but different. They had a great impact and were exactly appreciated by many until late in history and between Berlin and Istanbul sometimes its harder to tell where it begun and where it ended than in case of Japan of course (a one minded, self sufficient, closed to foreigners, separated island would have its track better printed, no doubt)... Its really not a shallow theory but a fact ... and there werent only a few but tons of them produced, mass production enough to equip armies, just probably you havent got chance to see them, I did ... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th December 2004 at 10:28 PM.

29th December 2004, 05:32 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The thing I wondered about is how much in adoption of Hussar sabre was a polish influence, and how much was a turkish/middle eastern influence. One can made a good case that turks used to constantly face european armies, and it would be as natural for the latter ones to adopt turkish/mameluk weaponry, as to adapt a polish version of originally turkish weaponry. USMC Mameluk sword is probably not a typical case, but that's the one for which the mameluk roots are unambigious. P.S. It would be almost certain that russian and caucasian swords would for example be influenced by both western and eastern versions - for each shashka with a gurda or "owka" blade one can find an iranian shamshir.

29th December 2004, 02:12 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski wrote a lot about it (there was hard discussion between him and western experts which disagreed with him saying it's not Polish rider, but he proved it) so I can search notes about it, to not repeating that what was said before. I read about it long time ago, and I just don't remember, but isn't it rider called Lisowczyk ?. This was light cavalry under the command of colonel Lisowski, which during Polish-Russian war occupied Moscow with Polish army in 1610? - I'll check it. It's a sabre not koncerz under the leg. I'm, not sure for now if Rembrandt wanted to put it there. Koncerz, as I wrote it earlier, was under left leg. Radu, your Polish is sehr gut . The only problem is the lack of Polish letters. Arrows you can write strzaly because strzala is singular. The saber is szabla not szablye and this war-hammer is nadziak. And I wouldn't be so convinced about mustache - it's a young boy anyway, and I didn't hear about sticked hairs in 17th c. Poland

29th December 2004, 03:04 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	hm. Again, I'm not exactly convinced. If it was so much an eastern european weapon, why only very few of them where in fact produced there ? At least the ones I've seen are mostly solingen. Am I wrong on this ? Concerning chinese/japanese - japanese old straight swords are little bit more different from tachi (katana is a relatively new weapon) than kiliji from a hussar's sabre. In fact there is such thing as late chinese swords, imitating japanese technologies, and yes in this case I'll say without any doubdts that their origin is in Japan.

30th December 2004, 02:19 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm not trying to prove that eastern european or polish sabre was not a precursor to a modern sabre, but I believe it's much more complicated than this - solingen and passau weapon production technologies, spanish moore influence, turks, mongols and etc. are all involved in this story. Concerning guards - picture B shows typical muslim guard. Picture 16 - is it a mix of nimcha and karabela ? Picture 18 - seen many times on shamshirs. Picture 17 is unique, but unfortunately this type of guard did not survive (I think ?) in post-Blucher times, and does not appear on all regulation patterns before it. Is it the only thing they did - they invented new guards for old swords ? Again I would really see something of a common turkish (like in seljuk-mongol-ottoman) origin, and try to understand what are the changes in _blades_ that been made. P.P.S. I constantly have arguments with caucasians who come with great classification of "foreign" iranian shamshir vs. "authentic" caucasian shashkas with the same idea that it's so hard to say definitely "here is something that have never seen before" - shashka is nothing more than a guard's type...