17thC Scottish Snaphaunce Musket

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 01:51 PM

Hi,
Some more photos of the barrel stamps and the underside decoration around the trigger. Barrel length 31 3/4 inches total length 44 1/2 inches bore just shy of 3/4 inch.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 03:11 PM

Ah, great stuff, Norman.
I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain

.
... But alright, you deserve it

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 08:13 PM

Hi Norman!! Thanks for the PM heads-up. OHHHHHH my goodness.

A "Wee Beauty" is certainly correct. What a fantastic find!! Except for the middle and rear barrel bands, it looks complete. Even the trumpet shaped ramrod. The lock design and partial fishtail butt stock looks sooooo Scottish.

I must admit that I'm jealous with envy that you saw this gun before I did.

Thanks for the great photos. Hope you don't mind me saving these in my photo library? The lock appears complete. The sear assembly seems to be a slight variation from others I've seen. What a wonderful, interesting gun. I'm glad you were able to enlist Michael's expertise on this. Did you locate this gun in Scotland?
Again, my congratulations. A wonderful early piece that just reeks with history. My hats off. Rick.

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 08:17 PM

Just noticed the two holes in the stock. One at the wrist, and the other where the middle barrel band use to be. This indicates that this gun may have had a sling installed at some point in the past? Rick.

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah, great stuff, Norman.
I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain

.
... But alright, you deserve it

Hi Fernando,
Do you think between us we now have enough firepower and shining blades to defend the Lines of Torres Vedras.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Do you think between us we now have enough firepower and shining blades to defend the Lines of Torres Vedras.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

Attention people; we are facing here a well educated Scot

.

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Attention people; we are facing here a well educated Scot

.

Aye lads!!! That he is!!!
Norman, beautiful example and as always I very much like your approach in learning and sharing your discern in the examples you find. Nicely done on the addition of the plate as well, a powerful reminder that there is no limit to sources for key information in the study of these weapons. Textbook!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 03:28 PM

Why, thank ye kind sirs.

Matchlock · 9th July 2012, 03:59 PM

Hi Norman,

This sure is a most interesting find for a Scotsman, and quite early as well, and I am glad I was able to lend a helping hand. For a comprehensive description however I should add that it is a composite piece, not belonging together originally and having undergone several alterations, including the sear and spring on the inside of the lock.
As the three holes in the tang, two of which have been riveted, denote the barrel was in at least two other stocks before the present. Additionally, the crude brass filling of the touch hole makes me wonder whether it was only burnt out or maybe worse, and why it was 'repaired' that rudely.
Two iron bands are missing from the forestock, and maybe an additonal band from the muzzle, where a few splinters of wood have gone.
I remember seeing the decorative and wavy (pyrography?) foliage of the stock on other Scottish firearms before but cannot tell exactly where.

I attach a couple of information on Scottish snaphances for the community which I sent you earlier privately.
The first shows a detached lock mechanism, ca. 1670-80, sold Christie's, and the other a long 'ramshorn' scroll but pistol in excellent condition, the pan shield dated 1662, from a dealer's page, and marked sold. The ends of the first lock terminate in the same acanthus-leaf shaped decorative finials as on your musket.

It would be great if an expert in Sottish firearms could identify the now indistinct barrelsmith's (?) marks on the left side and perhaps assign the star-like punched decoration to some locally confined provenance. As I told you, the quadrangular recess above the breech formerly probably held either a dove-tailed back sight or a brass lined mark.

What baffled me at first was the fact that the buttstock of your gun is not of the characteristically bent, bellied and hollowed form associated with most Scottish arms but rather shows an English/Dutch or European musket design. On the other hand, I like the identical design of the top jaw screw and the typical Scottish trigger, without a guard.

Anyway, I attach some characteristic Scottish snaphance guns, all scanned from Howard L. Blackmore, Guns and Rifles of the World, 1965.

Most interestingly, of all these instances only the detached mechanism on top shows the same rectangular piercing above the toe of the cock as your musket, as a rest for the nose of the sear.

Enjoy your find!

Best,
Michael

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 08:47 PM

Hi Rick,
I thought you would like this one. I must say I never imagined I would ever snag a piece like this. It's really nice to hold and the dark areas on the stock are worn smooth from use. There is a 2 inch difference between where the ramrod reaches down the barrel and the touchhole so maybe it's still loaded!! I did source it locally and it's been lying around in a relatively dry atmosphere, not easy up here, for a long time. I'm of the same opinion re the holes in the stock and I've attached an early decorated plate which if you look closely at the rifle sling it looks to be attached in similar areas. You are very welcome to use any of the photos and if there is any particular ones that you want and are not here just ask. Thanks again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 08:56 PM

What a fascinating plate. Is it yours, Norman ?

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 09:03 PM

Hi Fernando,
Unfortunately not, found it on the net and I think it it was a sold item from one of the better auction houses but I can't be sure, wish I had taken more note of the provenance.

I think it may be contemporary i.e. late 17thC.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 09:14 PM

Hi Norman. Yes, the gun may indeed still have a load in the barrel.

Of course, this won't be the first old gun that was aquired still loaded. Since I have the tools needed to safely extract that load (or other obstruction) I suggest you send the gun to my house for analysis and unloading. It shouldn't take me more than a couple years.

When you lower the rod into the barrel, does it feel/sound like it's hitting something solid or soft? Rick.

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Norman. Yes, the gun may indeed still have a load in the barrel.

Of course, this won't be the first old gun that was aquired still loaded. Since I have the tools needed to safely extract that load (or other obstruction) I suggest you send the gun to my house for analysis and unloading. It shouldn't take me more than a couple years.

When you lower the rod into the barrel, does it feel/sound like it's hitting something solid or soft? Rick.

Hi Rick,
Thank you so much for your "very kind offer".

It definitely is the soft thud of iron on lead. There are a few muzzleloading wallahs at my rifle club and I know they have the necessary tools to extract an un/misfired load. I would like to get the load out as carefully as possible as in itself it would be really interesting, will have a word tomorrow night and see what I can do. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 09:57 PM

Norman: Oh great!! That sounds very encouraging. (I'm also a muzzle loading shooter). If you have one of those tiny flashlights with a bright white light, you might be able to see the ball? Its sort of a shame having to thread a hole in that original ball, but thats likely the only way you can do it. However, it would be great to see if there is original powder and ball - and maybe wadding - down there. Make sure you save it in a plastic bag. And, of course post pictures!!! Thanks again. Rick.

8th July 2012, 01:51 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, Some more photos of the barrel stamps and the underside decoration around the trigger. Barrel length 31 3/4 inches total length 44 1/2 inches bore just shy of 3/4 inch. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th July 2012 at 02:09 PM.

9th July 2012, 03:59 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Norman, This sure is a most interesting find for a Scotsman, and quite early as well, and I am glad I was able to lend a helping hand. For a comprehensive description however I should add that it is a composite piece, not belonging together originally and having undergone several alterations, including the sear and spring on the inside of the lock. As the three holes in the tang, two of which have been riveted, denote the barrel was in at least two other stocks before the present. Additionally, the crude brass filling of the touch hole makes me wonder whether it was only burnt out or maybe worse, and why it was 'repaired' that rudely. Two iron bands are missing from the forestock, and maybe an additonal band from the muzzle, where a few splinters of wood have gone. I remember seeing the decorative and wavy (pyrography?) foliage of the stock on other Scottish firearms before but cannot tell exactly where. I attach a couple of information on Scottish snaphances for the community which I sent you earlier privately. The first shows a detached lock mechanism, ca. 1670-80, sold Christie's, and the other a long 'ramshorn' scroll but pistol in excellent condition, the pan shield dated 1662, from a dealer's page, and marked sold. The ends of the first lock terminate in the same acanthus-leaf shaped decorative finials as on your musket. It would be great if an expert in Sottish firearms could identify the now indistinct barrelsmith's (?) marks on the left side and perhaps assign the star-like punched decoration to some locally confined provenance. As I told you, the quadrangular recess above the breech formerly probably held either a dove-tailed back sight or a brass lined mark. What baffled me at first was the fact that the buttstock of your gun is not of the characteristically bent, bellied and hollowed form associated with most Scottish arms but rather shows an English/Dutch or European musket design. On the other hand, I like the identical design of the top jaw screw and the typical Scottish trigger, without a guard. Anyway, I attach some characteristic Scottish snaphance guns, all scanned from Howard L. Blackmore, Guns and Rifles of the World, 1965. Most interestingly, of all these instances only the detached mechanism on top shows the same rectangular piercing above the toe of the cock as your musket, as a rest for the nose of the sear. Enjoy your find! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 9th July 2012 at 04:28 PM.

8th July 2012, 08:47 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Rick, I thought you would like this one. I must say I never imagined I would ever snag a piece like this. It's really nice to hold and the dark areas on the stock are worn smooth from use. There is a 2 inch difference between where the ramrod reaches down the barrel and the touchhole so maybe it's still loaded!! I did source it locally and it's been lying around in a relatively dry atmosphere, not easy up here, for a long time. I'm of the same opinion re the holes in the stock and I've attached an early decorated plate which if you look closely at the rifle sling it looks to be attached in similar areas. You are very welcome to use any of the photos and if there is any particular ones that you want and are not here just ask. Thanks again for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th July 2012 at 09:14 PM.

8th July 2012, 03:11 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ah, great stuff, Norman. I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain . ... But alright, you deserve it

8th July 2012, 08:13 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Norman!! Thanks for the PM heads-up. OHHHHHH my goodness. A "Wee Beauty" is certainly correct. What a fantastic find!! Except for the middle and rear barrel bands, it looks complete. Even the trumpet shaped ramrod. The lock design and partial fishtail butt stock looks sooooo Scottish. I must admit that I'm jealous with envy that you saw this gun before I did. Thanks for the great photos. Hope you don't mind me saving these in my photo library? The lock appears complete. The sear assembly seems to be a slight variation from others I've seen. What a wonderful, interesting gun. I'm glad you were able to enlist Michael's expertise on this. Did you locate this gun in Scotland? Again, my congratulations. A wonderful early piece that just reeks with history. My hats off. Rick.

8th July 2012, 08:17 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Just noticed the two holes in the stock. One at the wrist, and the other where the middle barrel band use to be. This indicates that this gun may have had a sling installed at some point in the past? Rick.

9th July 2012, 03:28 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Why, thank ye kind sirs.

8th July 2012, 08:56 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What a fascinating plate. Is it yours, Norman ?

8th July 2012, 09:03 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Fernando, Unfortunately not, found it on the net and I think it it was a sold item from one of the better auction houses but I can't be sure, wish I had taken more note of the provenance. I think it may be contemporary i.e. late 17thC. Kind Regards, Norman.

8th July 2012, 09:14 PM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Norman. Yes, the gun may indeed still have a load in the barrel. Of course, this won't be the first old gun that was aquired still loaded. Since I have the tools needed to safely extract that load (or other obstruction) I suggest you send the gun to my house for analysis and unloading. It shouldn't take me more than a couple years. When you lower the rod into the barrel, does it feel/sound like it's hitting something solid or soft? Rick.

8th July 2012, 09:57 PM	#15
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Norman: Oh great!! That sounds very encouraging. (I'm also a muzzle loading shooter). If you have one of those tiny flashlights with a bright white light, you might be able to see the ball? Its sort of a shame having to thread a hole in that original ball, but thats likely the only way you can do it. However, it would be great to see if there is original powder and ball - and maybe wadding - down there. Make sure you save it in a plastic bag. And, of course post pictures!!! Thanks again. Rick.