Nimcha (?) with European Blade for Comments

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks Carlos! The one you have is a good example.

Ibrahim, reason why I think the badawi saif is Palastinian is the scabbard. But the hilt style is Saudi with minor variations in the silver strap and pommel cap.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the replies Lofty and Ibrahiim.
I think the sa'if in #12 at top with chainguard is most likely Hadhramauti in accord with Elgood's notes in "Arabian Arms and Armour", which has sa'if with varying hilt forms and silverwork with chainguards. The sharply canted pommel cap seems to concur with other Arabian swords seen in that reference also.
The 'Zanzibari' reference to the second sword (#12) with raised ring crossguard characteristic of these 'nimchas' in popular classification and per Buttin does seem to fall in line with the sword Lofty has posted in comparing the hilt furnishings. I would be inclined to agree that typically the Bedouin or 'Palestinian' sabres do not have knuckleguards, and the hangers and sabres of Yemen do usually have the triple roundels in the grip. But here is the rub in properly identifying these blades which come from the Red Sea trade and have been refurbished through generations.

Zanzibari swords were apparantly highly imported in Yemen from there, the diffusion between Yemeni entrepots and Sinai trade centers would be quite understandable.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the replies Lofty and Ibrahiim.
I think the sa'if in #12 at top with chainguard is most likely Hadhramauti in accord with Elgood's notes in "Arabian Arms and Armour", which has sa'if with varying hilt forms and silverwork with chainguards. The sharply canted pommel cap seems to concur with other Arabian swords seen in that reference also.
The 'Zanzibari' reference to the second sword (#12) with raised ring crossguard characteristic of these 'nimchas' in popular classification and per Buttin does seem to fall in line with the sword Lofty has posted in comparing the hilt furnishings. I would be inclined to agree that typically the Bedouin or 'Palestinian' sabres do not have knuckleguards, and the hangers and sabres of Yemen do usually have the triple roundels in the grip. But here is the rub in properly identifying these blades which come from the Red Sea trade and have been refurbished through generations.

Zanzibari swords were apparantly highly imported in Yemen from there, the diffusion between Yemeni entrepots and Sinai trade centers would be quite understandable.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ This Buttin Nimcha family is a very large group of swords...Follow any one of the styles in a certain direction and as you say "Theres the rub" as first one small detail changes then a whole series of things happens and away goes the hilt ~ Im not at all clear as to the origins of the blade ? Was it from the Spanish Jinetta or did it originate in Italy Venice Genoa around the formation of the Schiavonas and did it not then transfer across the North African Pirates Coast via Algeria to Morocco?... Or did the whole thing swing the other way round... ?

Buttin never identified the Yemeni version as The Yemeni Nimcha, nor did he identify the Bedawi Nimcha or the Bedawi (Palestinian) Or am I missing something?


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

The Palastinian saif is shared for comparison with Ariel's kilij (which I hope he shares) and not to suggest that its a nimcha. As for the origin of the blade, I cannot be sure but its probably locally made.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The Palastinian saif is shared for comparison with Ariel's kilij (which I hope he shares) and not to suggest that its a nimcha. As for the origin of the blade, I cannot be sure but its probably locally made.

Salaams A.alnakkas, I assume this is for me~ but we havent seen a kilij from ariel?? Is the Palestinian sword a derivative of one of Buttins Nimcha? Does it therefor originate from the Red Sea perhaps a Saudia variant. Is the other Nimcha with the (I)NDIA scroll work one of the Yemeni variants then modified as Bedawi..

There is a lot of detail hanging in the wind on this weapon and I wonder if it was simply a hybridised cutlass which once it hit the Zanzibar hub shattered into so many other sub types that it became uncontrollably difused.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Ibrahim; Yep, Ariel didnt show the kilij but I wanted to show him the saif to see if it have similar decoration to his kilij.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams, Shall we move the thread along and have a look at some maps ?

By no means the be all and end all of maps showing Bedouin tribal areas ~ this is a great start.
From the excellent book on Bedouin by Alan Keohane This is a must read for all enthusiasts of Bedouin and their equipment.

Perhaps other maps can be added as they appear.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks Carlos! The one you have is a good example.

Ibrahim, reason why I think the badawi saif is Palastinian is the scabbard. But the hilt style is Saudi with minor variations in the silver strap and pommel cap.

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Point taken, however, on a broader note I think more explanation may be needed to/for the general reader on what is meant by bedawi and who the bedouin groups were etc... I have a map of Bedouin groups and will post in a day or two...

I think the diffusion of swords follows several trade routes by land and sea, pilgrimage routes and lastly bedouin movement... I tend to further subdevide Buttins vast grouping of Zanzibari Nimchas by splitting off several other named groups ie The Yemeni Nimcha, The Palestinian Nimcha and The Bedawi Nimcha. I think the Hawkshead better known as the Karabela, though not mentioned yet in thread, is simply another Nimcha.

The Red Sea was a peculiar place; The prevailing north wind was a big problem for shipping under sail. Before steam (and I think prior to the discovery of the lanteen sail) most goods moving north were dropped at ports near the mouth of the Red Sea and vast camel trains did the rest. Movement of goods North and South was common place.

In 1869 everything changed with the opening of the Suez Canal as the volume of goods reached industrial proportions..both ways.

On the Palestinian sword am I right in assuming that it derived from the Zanzibar hub via Yemen and Arabia then rehilted in perhaps Jerusalem? Or do you think these swords came in from the Mediterranean more direct or perhaps off the Cairo hub?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.