A Sudanese dagger with a silver coin

tom hyle · 29th December 2004, 12:58 AM

Is it? Perhaps now days. It's an undermining of the coin as a display of wealth; the coin belts of mainland SE Asia were origninally, if they aren't still, a form of savings, for instance....

Flavio · 29th December 2004, 07:46 AM

Sure,the dating of a coin and its origin could be
completely different from the dating of the dagger and its origin,
being the coin an object with its own history,
but the curiosity to know most possible of an object is great!

Rather · 29th December 2004, 09:18 PM

Hi Flavio. I have a decent collection of Ottoman coins from the time of Orhan (abt. 1325 AD) till the last Sultan Muhammad VI (1923 AD), altogether some 600 – 700 different pieces. So I feel free to identify your coin. First of all, I like to state that the coin is a very good help for dating your dagger, as it is obvious that the assembly date can not be earlier than the date of the coin. (nevertheless, some parts like the blade might be much older). Your coin is indeed from the Ottoman Empire, it is a 5/10 Quirsh minted in Misr ( Egypt), so minded not far from Sudan. The side with the Tughra of Sultan Abdul Hamid II. is visible, below there is the Arabic number 21 and the word Sene, which means year. So this coin was minted in the 21st year of the reign of this Sultan. He reigned from 1293 AH till 1327 AH, which is from 1876 AD till 1909 AD. So the year of minting was 1896 AD (you have to add 20, not 21, as that would count the first year twice).
On the backside, you will find a large Arabic 5, date of accession 1293 and the name of the mint Misr. I only have to disappoint you about the material, it is not Silver, but Copper-Nickel, the silver coins from this Sultan have much different ornaments.
A beautiful dagger it is indeed, congratulations!

Flavio · 29th December 2004, 09:45 PM

Thank you very much Rather, for your precise and deepened explanation.

Kamil · 29th December 2004, 09:55 PM

Flavio, I suppose that the manufacturing date of your dagger can be close to that of the coin (chapeau bas, Rather!). I have seen a lot of daggers of a similar type, all of them coming from the Sudan; the workmanship of your piece suggests that it is quite old. Those more recently made (mainly for tourists) are of much worse quality. Also hilts with a disk-shaped pommel seem be produced no more. Really nice thing!

Yannis · 30th December 2004, 12:47 AM

Something is strange here. 1896 Egypt was not part of Ottoman empire.

Mohamed Ali had declare indepentance 1840 and in mid 1882 the British colonized Egypt.

Is this coin a sultan's "wish" or Misr goes with something else here?

From late 18th century till early 20th ottoman empire was falling in pieces. Corruption in capital, european antagonists and ethnic revorlts. If it was not Kemal and "Neoturks" movement to stop the destruction, I dont know how the turkish state could be now days.

Kamil · 30th December 2004, 12:23 PM

Yannis, Misr is definitely Egypt. Nominally Egypt was a part of the Ottoman Empire until the WWI, thus Egyptian coins were Ottoman in fact, and decorated with tughras. The political situation in the Empire has nothing to do here. (BTW. the Europeans worked hard to make the things even worse.)

Yannis · 30th December 2004, 01:22 PM

Kamil

I have to read some history again

Do you mean that Ottoman sultan was the ruler of Misr, or just his coins were the main curency in Egypt in the fall of 19th century?

30th December 2004, 12:23 PM	#7
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	Everything OK Yannis, Misr is definitely Egypt. Nominally Egypt was a part of the Ottoman Empire until the WWI, thus Egyptian coins were Ottoman in fact, and decorated with tughras. The political situation in the Empire has nothing to do here. (BTW. the Europeans worked hard to make the things even worse.)

29th December 2004, 12:58 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is it? Perhaps now days. It's an undermining of the coin as a display of wealth; the coin belts of mainland SE Asia were origninally, if they aren't still, a form of savings, for instance....

29th December 2004, 07:46 AM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Sure,the dating of a coin and its origin could be completely different from the dating of the dagger and its origin, being the coin an object with its own history, but the curiosity to know most possible of an object is great!

29th December 2004, 09:18 PM	#3
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Hi Flavio. I have a decent collection of Ottoman coins from the time of Orhan (abt. 1325 AD) till the last Sultan Muhammad VI (1923 AD), altogether some 600 – 700 different pieces. So I feel free to identify your coin. First of all, I like to state that the coin is a very good help for dating your dagger, as it is obvious that the assembly date can not be earlier than the date of the coin. (nevertheless, some parts like the blade might be much older). Your coin is indeed from the Ottoman Empire, it is a 5/10 Quirsh minted in Misr ( Egypt), so minded not far from Sudan. The side with the Tughra of Sultan Abdul Hamid II. is visible, below there is the Arabic number 21 and the word Sene, which means year. So this coin was minted in the 21st year of the reign of this Sultan. He reigned from 1293 AH till 1327 AH, which is from 1876 AD till 1909 AD. So the year of minting was 1896 AD (you have to add 20, not 21, as that would count the first year twice). On the backside, you will find a large Arabic 5, date of accession 1293 and the name of the mint Misr. I only have to disappoint you about the material, it is not Silver, but Copper-Nickel, the silver coins from this Sultan have much different ornaments. A beautiful dagger it is indeed, congratulations!

29th December 2004, 09:45 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Rather, for your precise and deepened explanation.

29th December 2004, 09:55 PM	#5
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	Flavio, I suppose that the manufacturing date of your dagger can be close to that of the coin (chapeau bas, Rather!). I have seen a lot of daggers of a similar type, all of them coming from the Sudan; the workmanship of your piece suggests that it is quite old. Those more recently made (mainly for tourists) are of much worse quality. Also hilts with a disk-shaped pommel seem be produced no more. Really nice thing!

30th December 2004, 12:47 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Something is strange here. 1896 Egypt was not part of Ottoman empire. Mohamed Ali had declare indepentance 1840 and in mid 1882 the British colonized Egypt. Is this coin a sultan's "wish" or Misr goes with something else here? From late 18th century till early 20th ottoman empire was falling in pieces. Corruption in capital, european antagonists and ethnic revorlts. If it was not Kemal and "Neoturks" movement to stop the destruction, I dont know how the turkish state could be now days.

30th December 2004, 01:22 PM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Kamil I have to read some history again Do you mean that Ottoman sultan was the ruler of Misr, or just his coins were the main curency in Egypt in the fall of 19th century?