Keris holder for comment

Sajen · 23rd June 2012, 10:59 PM

Hello mate,

it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one!

Is it from heavy or light wood?

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 23rd June 2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello mate,

it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one!

Is it from heavy or light wood?

Regards,

Detlef

Hey Buddy

He's 55cm tall and weighs around 2.6kg, quite heavy?

He has an open gripping hand as is usual, but it's quite a small diameter hole. Are these used to hold other weapons apart from Keris?

I've not seen one like him before, do you recognise him or know who he represents?

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 03:49 AM

Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

Rick · 24th June 2012, 06:58 AM

Also, he might be of Javanese origin .

The figure seems a bit restrained for Bali .

For reference check out Javanese Wayang masks ...

Why do you think he is Bima ?

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 08:49 AM

No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period.

Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period.

Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

Most of this collection seems to have been put together around WW2 and the next few decades. There were many pieces that date to the 1940s which were clearly bought 'new' and still look 'new' now.
He seemed to have a wide interest, buying some of the pieces 'brand new', some old and some already antique when collected.
I'm not sure when his collecting stopped but I'd guess around the end of the 70s (From the little I know of the source and the examination of parts of the collection) So I would say that beyond 1980 would be unusually late in context, but anything's possible of course.
These come directly from the original collectors family with his descriptions where possible. This one was described as being: 'Indonesia C.1920'

I personally thought that was rather hopeful

and 'guessed' that it was more likely 1960s-70s.
Amazing how even a few decades makes a world of difference in the effort on these pieces. The quality of this one is actually rather good compared with many of the 'new' ones being offered, and yet compared with earlier ones it looks simple and nieve.
Tunggulametung's attribution of Bhima seems reasonable, he certainly looks like Bhima.

Nice large base with corresponding sturdy balance and low centre of gravity.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

Hi Tunggulametung,

Bhima? Ah fantastic thank you! Legendary warrior with an equally legendary moustache, he makes a good subject for a Keris stand.)
His grip is quite small, were these ever made to hold weapons other than Keris?

Thanks
Gene

Jean · 24th June 2012, 09:25 AM

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think.
Best regards
Jean

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think.
Best regards
Jean

Excellent thank you Jean.
I think that settles it, he is Bhima

And a fine moustache it is too!

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 02:03 PM

The reason I guessed 1980-1990's is because during that time span Hardiono set up a store in Kuta-Legian under the managership of his niece, and they had an extremely large number of these souvenir keris holders produced. Actually, this could be narrowed to probably 1985-1995. Prior to that I didn't see much between about 1970 and when Hardiono's stuff started to be sold, older keris holders very often have a square base rather than a round base, and keris holders produced for local consumption are carved from hardwood, rather than softwood. During the 1960's and 1970's Bali was still very much unaffected by tourism, yes, there were tourists there, there had been since the 1930's, but the carving centres around Mas and Ubud had not really begun to produce the vast quantities of souvenir quality items.
A keris holder that was produced in the era prior to 1970 could be expected to utilize hardwood, to have a square base, and to have a hole large enough to accept a keris rather than an umbrella, additionally it was more likely to have the rather flat, dull paint used in traditional Balinese carvings, rather than the high-gloss paint that this one appears to have --- still, anything is possible. Collectors usually base their attributions of age upon what they are told by the people they buy from.

In respect of the nomination of Bhima as a candidate. Bhima has more than a single characterisation, we have Bhima or Werkudara, then there is Bratasena (Bhima as a young man), then Bhima Wanda Mimis, Bhima Wanda Lintang --- it goes on. Things are never as simple as we might like them to be. Bhima as Bratasena is often characterised with a snake, and the face of this keris holder has the Balinese characterisation of a warrior's eyes, the waist is small, as Bhima's waist should be, essentially Bhima should be depicted as an athlete, and his defining attribute is the thumbnail, something I cannot see in this keris holder. Still, it could be intended to be Bhima, but is more likely to be a warrior characterisation including some Bhima-like characteristics.

For a better understanding of the way in which the Balinese use characterisation in their art, I suggest a reading of "The Art and Culture of Bali"--- Urs Ramseyer might not go astray. For some guidance on the characteristics of wayang characters, "Rupa & Karakter Wayang Purwa"--- Heru Sujarwo is an excellent source.

Once we have some understanding of the way in which Balinese artists interpret their subject we find that it is not difficult to identify a class of character, for instance, this keris holder statue is obviously a warrior, a brave man but rather coarse, however which specific warrior is never easy to determine, and often depends upon context.

Gene, regarding the quality of Balinese carving. It has not deteriorated. In fact it has improved consistently since the Balinese realised that there was a market for it, and they absorbed the influence of European artists who lived amongst them, commencing well before WWII. But its the old story of we get what we pay for. Very good carving costs very good money, and people who just want a souvenir are usually not prepared to pay much. Because of this much of the Balinese carving that we see in the western world is not really of very good quality.

Jean, the man sitting is Javanese, I've seen a lot of these that were done in Jogja, and this is a typically Javanese style, however I'm not sure about the figure on the rather thin square base, I think from what I can see that it is probably Balinese. These keris holders did not have a place in Javanese society, but they did in Balinese society; I've never seen an old Javanese holder of this style, only new ones done for collectors.

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
.........................................
Jean

Jean, I think yours could be Bayu, father of Bima.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Jean, I think yours could be Bayu, father of Bima.

Ah, that's interesting. What distinguishes father from son?

Jean · 25th June 2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Jean, I think yours could be Bayu, father of Bima.

Chandra, thank you for the tip and I agree that my piece should not depict Bima because of the hairdress. So he could be Bayu, the wind god?

Regards

24th June 2012, 09:25 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hi Gene, Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours. I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think. Best regards Jean Attached Images

23rd June 2012, 10:59 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,189	Hello mate, it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one! Is it from heavy or light wood? Regards, Detlef

24th June 2012, 03:49 AM	#3
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

24th June 2012, 06:58 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Also, he might be of Javanese origin . The figure seems a bit restrained for Bali . For reference check out Javanese Wayang masks ... Why do you think he is Bima ?

24th June 2012, 08:49 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,012	No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period. Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

24th June 2012, 02:03 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,012	The reason I guessed 1980-1990's is because during that time span Hardiono set up a store in Kuta-Legian under the managership of his niece, and they had an extremely large number of these souvenir keris holders produced. Actually, this could be narrowed to probably 1985-1995. Prior to that I didn't see much between about 1970 and when Hardiono's stuff started to be sold, older keris holders very often have a square base rather than a round base, and keris holders produced for local consumption are carved from hardwood, rather than softwood. During the 1960's and 1970's Bali was still very much unaffected by tourism, yes, there were tourists there, there had been since the 1930's, but the carving centres around Mas and Ubud had not really begun to produce the vast quantities of souvenir quality items. A keris holder that was produced in the era prior to 1970 could be expected to utilize hardwood, to have a square base, and to have a hole large enough to accept a keris rather than an umbrella, additionally it was more likely to have the rather flat, dull paint used in traditional Balinese carvings, rather than the high-gloss paint that this one appears to have --- still, anything is possible. Collectors usually base their attributions of age upon what they are told by the people they buy from. In respect of the nomination of Bhima as a candidate. Bhima has more than a single characterisation, we have Bhima or Werkudara, then there is Bratasena (Bhima as a young man), then Bhima Wanda Mimis, Bhima Wanda Lintang --- it goes on. Things are never as simple as we might like them to be. Bhima as Bratasena is often characterised with a snake, and the face of this keris holder has the Balinese characterisation of a warrior's eyes, the waist is small, as Bhima's waist should be, essentially Bhima should be depicted as an athlete, and his defining attribute is the thumbnail, something I cannot see in this keris holder. Still, it could be intended to be Bhima, but is more likely to be a warrior characterisation including some Bhima-like characteristics. For a better understanding of the way in which the Balinese use characterisation in their art, I suggest a reading of "The Art and Culture of Bali"--- Urs Ramseyer might not go astray. For some guidance on the characteristics of wayang characters, "Rupa & Karakter Wayang Purwa"--- Heru Sujarwo is an excellent source. Once we have some understanding of the way in which Balinese artists interpret their subject we find that it is not difficult to identify a class of character, for instance, this keris holder statue is obviously a warrior, a brave man but rather coarse, however which specific warrior is never easy to determine, and often depends upon context. Gene, regarding the quality of Balinese carving. It has not deteriorated. In fact it has improved consistently since the Balinese realised that there was a market for it, and they absorbed the influence of European artists who lived amongst them, commencing well before WWII. But its the old story of we get what we pay for. Very good carving costs very good money, and people who just want a souvenir are usually not prepared to pay much. Because of this much of the Balinese carving that we see in the western world is not really of very good quality. Jean, the man sitting is Javanese, I've seen a lot of these that were done in Jogja, and this is a typically Javanese style, however I'm not sure about the figure on the rather thin square base, I think from what I can see that it is probably Balinese. These keris holders did not have a place in Javanese society, but they did in Balinese society; I've never seen an old Javanese holder of this style, only new ones done for collectors.