messer, kiegsmesser, grosses messer, langes messer

[broadaxe]

Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.

[Matchlock]

Thanks, Broadaxe,

For pointing this out!

I attach some more close ups of this unusual piece.


m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.

it is also no saber!
saber; follow the definition of Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen p183.
the word saber has a magyaric origin szablya , Servian and russian sablja , french and english sabre, spanish sable italian sciabla . The saber is a weapon that is worn on the side, with long curved blade and asymmetrical, often slightly forward bent handle/grip.
the curvature of the saber offers an extension of the cutting edge and is for a combined blow and cutting function created.

The weapon under discussion has no curved blade and is therefor according to the definition of Seitz but also others fe JP Puype no saber!

further is the hilt construction also not of a sword type, because each sword has a pommel.This is necessary in order to be a sword and not another weapon.

It is a further development of the Falchion type and forerunner of the Messer.


In the swiss tradition? can you please explain what you mean with this?
Do you know Swiss art with this weapon depicted or similar Swiss weapons?

Indeed, the weapon is located in the musée lármee, my apologies.
best,

[Matchlock]

This piece could by identical to the one in post #4.
The blade is struck with a pi mark.

Sold Hermann Historica, Oct. 20, 2005.


m

[cornelistromp]

Dorotheum 12 June lot 33, with thanks to Michael.

[fernando]

And where is Michael, Jasper ... do tou happen to know ?
A couple weeks since he has last been around

[fernando]

Your PM box is full, Jasper.

[cornelistromp]

recently I came across this sword, found in a canal in the Netherlands
transitional type of sword to Messer, the long handle gives plenty of counter weight and takes over the function of the pommel. The handle has the construction of a sword handle so without plates and rivets.
a great advantage above a sword of this type is that the handle offers plenty of room for two-handed techniques.
the blade is doubled edged, thin making it more of a cutting sword.
with a cross of which the bottomricassopart forms the end of the grip also seen on some Katzbalger and cinqueda swords, to date late 15th century.