Reproduced Light Cavalry sabre, pattern 1840??

christek · 20th June 2012, 02:08 PM

Hello Jim and fellow forum members/ and moderators.
Thank you for allowing this opportunity to discuss this sabre.

I sincerely apologise for posting the replica sabre and will refrain from doing so in the future. I only purchased it for the reasons stated and have since passed it on to my brother who, unlike me, does not ill-consider the pretentious.

I have been attempting to learn as much as possible about these arms as I find this particular model (or range of models) quite fascinating. The scope of these sabres makes it difficult to isolate particular models as they appear to oscillate in design (I admit I need a better range of scholarly contexts). It would appear that French cuirassiers in the Napoleonic era were issued with the strait single edged XIII model 1810 (shown in photos). This sabre could, of course, be used as a cutting weapon but according to my sources its design, combined with the coordinated and disciplined charge of the cuirassiers made it first and foremost a thrusting weapon. The French M1822 was off similar design that incorporated a curved single edge. Could one presume a change of tactics or conditions that occurred between the patterns that facilitated the amendment? I wonder if the defeat of the cuirassiers at Waterloo (as they charged into the British square formations) fundamentally changed the thrusting attributes of these cavalry sabres?

It would seem that the designs of the US Light Cavalry sabre, pattern 1840 or "old wristbreaker" (if I have this correct) are definitely modelled after the French swords, as the similarities are undeniable. The sabre was heavy at 2 kilos (or 5 lb) and menacing. What is not so easy for me to attain, is a certain date when these were not standard issue for the cavalry, I’m quite sure that the troopers pursuing Crazy Horse in 1876 were ordered to carry only carbines and probably revolvers. Does this provide a potential timeframe when the sabre became realised as obsolete?

Thank you again for allowing me to follow up my fascination on a sabre I have not yet acquired. I hope to be the proud owner of one shortly and will certainly share it with my fellow forumites.

Is it considered the norm to discuss prices and values in private messages?

fernando · 20th June 2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christek

... Is it considered the norm to discuss prices and values in private messages? ...

Naturally; that's why they are private

.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2012, 12:08 AM

Hi Christek,
Absolutely no problem, and I appreciate your sincere interest in learning more on the history and development of the actual swords represented, at least nominally, in some of these reproductions. I look forward to your further posting of your future acquisitions for discussion, and hopefully we can help with any questions you might have.

The M1840 cavalry sabre has a most interesting history, despite the fact that it came into use at a time when the use of the sword was waning, especially in the U.S. Virtually one of the only sword makers here at the time was Ames, and they were not well situated for production when new swords were sought in 1840 and actually the first ones were produced in Solingen (Schnitzler & Kirshbaum) delivered in 1841.
By the time of the Civil War many of these were on hand, though the M1860 (actually first made 1857) were becoming available. The cavalry sabre did not see a great deal of use, but was still a regulation weapon.There are almost no records of wounds caused by swords except for blunt trauma type instances, but of course there are various narrative and incidental accounts which may not be entirely accurate.
The reason these M1840's were termed 'old wristbreaker' was reputedly due to the poor training and ill perceived concepts of maintainance, typically they werent even sharp. They were heavy and when incorrectly used one could easily injure thier wrists in awkwardly executed manuevers.

By the time of the Indian wars, there was some degree of use or at least wear of these sabres (hence the American Indian term 'long knives) at first but by the time of the Little Big Horn in 1876 these were left behind. There are instances of some swords apparantly captured among some tribal members but these were held ceremonially as status symbols and not as weapons.

After the Civil War these swords were sold literally in heaps as surplus, despite not being officially obsolete. Many ended up in armouries while many went to surplus vendors and by the time of the Spanish American war it is said swords needed to be obtained from some of these vendors.
The M1913 Patton sword is considered generally the last U.S. regulation cavalry sword ( a M1931 prototype also existed) but never saw use in combat. The official order rendering the cavalry sword officially obsolete was on April 18, 1934 (pers. comm. West Point 7/10/00) and it is said that General Patton himself wept as his men turned in thier swords as ordered.

If I can be of any further help please reach me privately.

All the very best,
Jim

christek · 21st June 2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If I can be of any further help please reach me privately.

It would seem that I have not the sufficient level of membership to allow this. I will as soon as my membership reaches this level. Thank you.

Thanks for the fascinating read Jim. I always appreciate a discussion with a fellow historian. My field is modern history (albeit only at BA level), Australian history in particular; so I find your insight both fascinating and educational. Let us hopefully continue this discussion when I have the piece in my hand.

Kind regards, Chris.

20th June 2012, 02:08 PM	#1
christek Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 52	Hello Jim and fellow forum members/ and moderators. Thank you for allowing this opportunity to discuss this sabre. I sincerely apologise for posting the replica sabre and will refrain from doing so in the future. I only purchased it for the reasons stated and have since passed it on to my brother who, unlike me, does not ill-consider the pretentious. I have been attempting to learn as much as possible about these arms as I find this particular model (or range of models) quite fascinating. The scope of these sabres makes it difficult to isolate particular models as they appear to oscillate in design (I admit I need a better range of scholarly contexts). It would appear that French cuirassiers in the Napoleonic era were issued with the strait single edged XIII model 1810 (shown in photos). This sabre could, of course, be used as a cutting weapon but according to my sources its design, combined with the coordinated and disciplined charge of the cuirassiers made it first and foremost a thrusting weapon. The French M1822 was off similar design that incorporated a curved single edge. Could one presume a change of tactics or conditions that occurred between the patterns that facilitated the amendment? I wonder if the defeat of the cuirassiers at Waterloo (as they charged into the British square formations) fundamentally changed the thrusting attributes of these cavalry sabres? It would seem that the designs of the US Light Cavalry sabre, pattern 1840 or "old wristbreaker" (if I have this correct) are definitely modelled after the French swords, as the similarities are undeniable. The sabre was heavy at 2 kilos (or 5 lb) and menacing. What is not so easy for me to attain, is a certain date when these were not standard issue for the cavalry, I’m quite sure that the troopers pursuing Crazy Horse in 1876 were ordered to carry only carbines and probably revolvers. Does this provide a potential timeframe when the sabre became realised as obsolete? Thank you again for allowing me to follow up my fascination on a sabre I have not yet acquired. I hope to be the proud owner of one shortly and will certainly share it with my fellow forumites. Is it considered the norm to discuss prices and values in private messages? Attached Images

21st June 2012, 12:08 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Hi Christek, Absolutely no problem, and I appreciate your sincere interest in learning more on the history and development of the actual swords represented, at least nominally, in some of these reproductions. I look forward to your further posting of your future acquisitions for discussion, and hopefully we can help with any questions you might have. The M1840 cavalry sabre has a most interesting history, despite the fact that it came into use at a time when the use of the sword was waning, especially in the U.S. Virtually one of the only sword makers here at the time was Ames, and they were not well situated for production when new swords were sought in 1840 and actually the first ones were produced in Solingen (Schnitzler & Kirshbaum) delivered in 1841. By the time of the Civil War many of these were on hand, though the M1860 (actually first made 1857) were becoming available. The cavalry sabre did not see a great deal of use, but was still a regulation weapon.There are almost no records of wounds caused by swords except for blunt trauma type instances, but of course there are various narrative and incidental accounts which may not be entirely accurate. The reason these M1840's were termed 'old wristbreaker' was reputedly due to the poor training and ill perceived concepts of maintainance, typically they werent even sharp. They were heavy and when incorrectly used one could easily injure thier wrists in awkwardly executed manuevers. By the time of the Indian wars, there was some degree of use or at least wear of these sabres (hence the American Indian term 'long knives) at first but by the time of the Little Big Horn in 1876 these were left behind. There are instances of some swords apparantly captured among some tribal members but these were held ceremonially as status symbols and not as weapons. After the Civil War these swords were sold literally in heaps as surplus, despite not being officially obsolete. Many ended up in armouries while many went to surplus vendors and by the time of the Spanish American war it is said swords needed to be obtained from some of these vendors. The M1913 Patton sword is considered generally the last U.S. regulation cavalry sword ( a M1931 prototype also existed) but never saw use in combat. The official order rendering the cavalry sword officially obsolete was on April 18, 1934 (pers. comm. West Point 7/10/00) and it is said that General Patton himself wept as his men turned in thier swords as ordered. If I can be of any further help please reach me privately. All the very best, Jim