Dime el Aterro

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2012, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

Thanks for that Fernando, live and learn

callumm · 8th September 2014, 05:50 AM

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

fernando · 10th September 2014, 05:10 PM

It seems as the dechiphering of these marks is far from being cracked.
I have been in contact with two specialists in Spanish swords. They both assume they are intrigued by this set up of words, which they had never seen. The approach that this is a call to violence is most improbable. Spanish allusions are basicaly on the pious side and not threat texts. Also the the manner the wording is separated brings no conclusion. Alisandro is not recorded as a Spanish sword smith; maybe an Italian ?
So back to square one, guys

.

M ELEY · 11th September 2014, 02:59 AM

Awhile back, I had a Spanish broadsword 18th c. with the classic 6-sided Spanish blade with double fullers marked, in Spanish, with the traditional logo 'Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor.' made for the Spanish market, the balde was actually German, marked 'Solingen'. I know Spanish steel was the finest in the world, but I assume colonial items destined to Spanish ports and beyond were not so picky. Could this blade be German-made and the saying be in line, although somewhat more threatening, to the typical motto above? It would explain why the Spanish translation isn't spot-on (being from an outside source). We do know many German blades went to the Middle East and Africa. Just a very big guess-

Also, forgot to mention on that awesome backsword, many of the Scottish and English broadsword blades of the 18th c. were German-made. I've seen many baskethilts marked Solingen on the blade and, of course, we have that whole Houndslow School thing going on in the U.K.

fernando · 12th September 2014, 05:07 PM

German blades ... why not ?
The Spanish possibility starts to evade.
However after a few thoughts, the word composition is so otherwise that i would not see it as a corruption or mispelling of a Spanish (Castillian) sentence, but a smith fantasy.
The odd separation, the wrong conjugation, the so unusual & and all that.
... all these "Aterro" variations coming from the same spot, naturaly.

fernando · 17th September 2014, 07:03 PM

I have received the last of three advices i requested from Spanish sword connoisseurs.
Again the Spanish origin for these blades was a possibility put aside.
A different approach was instead brought to consideration, as being the inverted position, that is, Spanish blades being imported from Germany, when home production did not suffice the needs, and a clumsy conversion of a German text to Spanish.
Well, a new perspective

.

.

M ELEY · 18th September 2014, 02:43 AM

I was guessing. Glad to have more knowledgible folks support the possibility. Now, what is the connection with a German-made, Spanish style blade ending up on an East Indain sword? Trade routes??

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2014, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by callumm

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

Hi Callumm,

I missed this post previously.

I have not until now seen this extra mark but I would like to bring something to light about this sword blade you present, something that has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion.

To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be.

Gavin

fernando · 18th September 2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

... To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be. ...

No doubt about that, Gav; i have noticed that too, but neglected such angle. However in a fantasy it could be a 'come and go', that is, a Firangi blade being traded to India for a local style sword and later remounted on an Eurpean type hilt.
On the other hand, a third possibility is now on the table; an Indian blade, with nonsense inscriptions ?

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2014, 02:07 PM

One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2014, 11:34 PM

Gav,
This interesting basket hilt seems pretty composite to me, and as you have well observed, there are indications of a previous langet presence as seen on khanda (firangi). This well worn old Solingen blade is of the form often seen on many examples of these firangi.
I recall many discussions with Juan Perez well over a decade ago when we determined that the "Spanish motto' swords were never produced in Spain but in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies.
There are considerable volumes of these 'dragoon' blades which seem produced around 1760s to 1780s and are usually of the hexagonal section Mark has noted, however there seem to have been some other variations.

These ended up in the frontier regions of New Spain, as well as in Cuba and other Spanish ports of call, and were often mounted in the Bilbo and cuphilt forms of arming swords, as well as profoundly shortened on espada anchas.

This 'motto' seems to have been around for some time prior according to research done by Fernando, and existed in French as well. In most cases these 'mottos' were typically in 'distorted' syntax, wording and spellings as Solingen smiths fashioned these inscriptions to suit various clientele.

It is certainly similar case with this 'motto' or 'phrase', and as has been shown the blades bearing them ended up moving through trade networks an all manner of diffusion. Many of these blades have undoubtedly had remarkable 'working lives'.

It would appear this one found a new home with an English basket guard, what appears to be a Scottish conical pommel, and as noted, a well worn backsword blade, all 18th century components, with an interesting cord wrap which resembles that I have seen on Chinese da dao ring pommel type swords (not inferring that China is in any way involved with this sword) .

It is hard to say whether this assemblage might be in colonial cirumstances and using available parts, however, I would point out that British forces were well established in India in the 18th century with the EIC. A great many basket hilts ended up there with the British army, and it would not be surprising to see components of these 18th century dragoon swords hilts and good German blades (from previous Indian use) joined before and after Seringapatam (1799). I have found instances of many of the Indian forces after that battle and during British occupation ended up in British military units, and much as in the native military unit traditions which evolved in the British Raj, many swords for native sergeants and officers were rather ersatz type examples.
I have seen photos of ranking officials and officers of such units later, in one instance an officer of the 'Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt of apparently some vintage, the image from around 1880.

8th September 2014, 05:50 AM	#2
callumm Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1	I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland). This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'. So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down? Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms? Attached Images

10th September 2014, 05:10 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Spanish ? It seems as the dechiphering of these marks is far from being cracked. I have been in contact with two specialists in Spanish swords. They both assume they are intrigued by this set up of words, which they had never seen. The approach that this is a call to violence is most improbable. Spanish allusions are basicaly on the pious side and not threat texts. Also the the manner the wording is separated brings no conclusion. Alisandro is not recorded as a Spanish sword smith; maybe an Italian ? So back to square one, guys .

17th September 2014, 07:03 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have received the last of three advices i requested from Spanish sword connoisseurs. Again the Spanish origin for these blades was a possibility put aside. A different approach was instead brought to consideration, as being the inverted position, that is, Spanish blades being imported from Germany, when home production did not suffice the needs, and a clumsy conversion of a German text to Spanish. Well, a new perspective . . Last edited by fernando; 17th September 2014 at 07:34 PM. Reason: spell

11th September 2014, 02:59 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Awhile back, I had a Spanish broadsword 18th c. with the classic 6-sided Spanish blade with double fullers marked, in Spanish, with the traditional logo 'Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor.' made for the Spanish market, the balde was actually German, marked 'Solingen'. I know Spanish steel was the finest in the world, but I assume colonial items destined to Spanish ports and beyond were not so picky. Could this blade be German-made and the saying be in line, although somewhat more threatening, to the typical motto above? It would explain why the Spanish translation isn't spot-on (being from an outside source). We do know many German blades went to the Middle East and Africa. Just a very big guess- Also, forgot to mention on that awesome backsword, many of the Scottish and English broadsword blades of the 18th c. were German-made. I've seen many baskethilts marked Solingen on the blade and, of course, we have that whole Houndslow School thing going on in the U.K.

12th September 2014, 05:07 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	German blades ... why not ? The Spanish possibility starts to evade. However after a few thoughts, the word composition is so otherwise that i would not see it as a corruption or mispelling of a Spanish (Castillian) sentence, but a smith fantasy. The odd separation, the wrong conjugation, the so unusual & and all that. ... all these "Aterro" variations coming from the same spot, naturaly.

18th September 2014, 02:43 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I was guessing. Glad to have more knowledgible folks support the possibility. Now, what is the connection with a German-made, Spanish style blade ending up on an East Indain sword? Trade routes??

18th September 2014, 02:07 PM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

18th September 2014, 11:34 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Gav, This interesting basket hilt seems pretty composite to me, and as you have well observed, there are indications of a previous langet presence as seen on khanda (firangi). This well worn old Solingen blade is of the form often seen on many examples of these firangi. I recall many discussions with Juan Perez well over a decade ago when we determined that the "Spanish motto' swords were never produced in Spain but in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies. There are considerable volumes of these 'dragoon' blades which seem produced around 1760s to 1780s and are usually of the hexagonal section Mark has noted, however there seem to have been some other variations. These ended up in the frontier regions of New Spain, as well as in Cuba and other Spanish ports of call, and were often mounted in the Bilbo and cuphilt forms of arming swords, as well as profoundly shortened on espada anchas. This 'motto' seems to have been around for some time prior according to research done by Fernando, and existed in French as well. In most cases these 'mottos' were typically in 'distorted' syntax, wording and spellings as Solingen smiths fashioned these inscriptions to suit various clientele. It is certainly similar case with this 'motto' or 'phrase', and as has been shown the blades bearing them ended up moving through trade networks an all manner of diffusion. Many of these blades have undoubtedly had remarkable 'working lives'. It would appear this one found a new home with an English basket guard, what appears to be a Scottish conical pommel, and as noted, a well worn backsword blade, all 18th century components, with an interesting cord wrap which resembles that I have seen on Chinese da dao ring pommel type swords (not inferring that China is in any way involved with this sword) . It is hard to say whether this assemblage might be in colonial cirumstances and using available parts, however, I would point out that British forces were well established in India in the 18th century with the EIC. A great many basket hilts ended up there with the British army, and it would not be surprising to see components of these 18th century dragoon swords hilts and good German blades (from previous Indian use) joined before and after Seringapatam (1799). I have found instances of many of the Indian forces after that battle and during British occupation ended up in British military units, and much as in the native military unit traditions which evolved in the British Raj, many swords for native sergeants and officers were rather ersatz type examples. I have seen photos of ranking officials and officers of such units later, in one instance an officer of the 'Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt of apparently some vintage, the image from around 1880.