Dime el Aterro

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2012, 05:55 PM

Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation.

The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting.
* DIME & EL *
* ATERRO *
I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols
like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others.

The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name.

On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that.
The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree.

I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 19th June 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined...

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2012, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

Thanks for that Fernando, live and learn

callumm · 8th September 2014, 05:50 AM

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

fernando · 10th September 2014, 05:10 PM

It seems as the dechiphering of these marks is far from being cracked.
I have been in contact with two specialists in Spanish swords. They both assume they are intrigued by this set up of words, which they had never seen. The approach that this is a call to violence is most improbable. Spanish allusions are basicaly on the pious side and not threat texts. Also the the manner the wording is separated brings no conclusion. Alisandro is not recorded as a Spanish sword smith; maybe an Italian ?
So back to square one, guys

.

M ELEY · 11th September 2014, 02:59 AM

Awhile back, I had a Spanish broadsword 18th c. with the classic 6-sided Spanish blade with double fullers marked, in Spanish, with the traditional logo 'Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor.' made for the Spanish market, the balde was actually German, marked 'Solingen'. I know Spanish steel was the finest in the world, but I assume colonial items destined to Spanish ports and beyond were not so picky. Could this blade be German-made and the saying be in line, although somewhat more threatening, to the typical motto above? It would explain why the Spanish translation isn't spot-on (being from an outside source). We do know many German blades went to the Middle East and Africa. Just a very big guess-

Also, forgot to mention on that awesome backsword, many of the Scottish and English broadsword blades of the 18th c. were German-made. I've seen many baskethilts marked Solingen on the blade and, of course, we have that whole Houndslow School thing going on in the U.K.

fernando · 12th September 2014, 05:07 PM

German blades ... why not ?
The Spanish possibility starts to evade.
However after a few thoughts, the word composition is so otherwise that i would not see it as a corruption or mispelling of a Spanish (Castillian) sentence, but a smith fantasy.
The odd separation, the wrong conjugation, the so unusual & and all that.
... all these "Aterro" variations coming from the same spot, naturaly.

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2014, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by callumm

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

Hi Callumm,

I missed this post previously.

I have not until now seen this extra mark but I would like to bring something to light about this sword blade you present, something that has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion.

To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be.

Gavin

fernando · 18th September 2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

... To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be. ...

No doubt about that, Gav; i have noticed that too, but neglected such angle. However in a fantasy it could be a 'come and go', that is, a Firangi blade being traded to India for a local style sword and later remounted on an Eurpean type hilt.
On the other hand, a third possibility is now on the table; an Indian blade, with nonsense inscriptions ?

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2014, 02:07 PM

One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

18th June 2012, 05:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation. The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting. * DIME & EL * * ATERRO * I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others. The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name. On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that. The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree. I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2012 at 07:04 PM.

8th September 2014, 05:50 AM	#4
callumm Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1	I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland). This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'. So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down? Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms? Attached Images

10th September 2014, 05:10 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Spanish ? It seems as the dechiphering of these marks is far from being cracked. I have been in contact with two specialists in Spanish swords. They both assume they are intrigued by this set up of words, which they had never seen. The approach that this is a call to violence is most improbable. Spanish allusions are basicaly on the pious side and not threat texts. Also the the manner the wording is separated brings no conclusion. Alisandro is not recorded as a Spanish sword smith; maybe an Italian ? So back to square one, guys .

11th September 2014, 02:59 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Awhile back, I had a Spanish broadsword 18th c. with the classic 6-sided Spanish blade with double fullers marked, in Spanish, with the traditional logo 'Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor.' made for the Spanish market, the balde was actually German, marked 'Solingen'. I know Spanish steel was the finest in the world, but I assume colonial items destined to Spanish ports and beyond were not so picky. Could this blade be German-made and the saying be in line, although somewhat more threatening, to the typical motto above? It would explain why the Spanish translation isn't spot-on (being from an outside source). We do know many German blades went to the Middle East and Africa. Just a very big guess- Also, forgot to mention on that awesome backsword, many of the Scottish and English broadsword blades of the 18th c. were German-made. I've seen many baskethilts marked Solingen on the blade and, of course, we have that whole Houndslow School thing going on in the U.K.

12th September 2014, 05:07 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	German blades ... why not ? The Spanish possibility starts to evade. However after a few thoughts, the word composition is so otherwise that i would not see it as a corruption or mispelling of a Spanish (Castillian) sentence, but a smith fantasy. The odd separation, the wrong conjugation, the so unusual & and all that. ... all these "Aterro" variations coming from the same spot, naturaly.

18th September 2014, 02:07 PM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?