Twistcore kris with... erm.. Wha-- What is this?

VANDOO · 13th June 2012, 03:57 AM

STRANGELY IT LOOKS OK BUT WHEN YOU PICK IT UP IT FEELS ALL WRONG. I PLAN TO WORK ON IT SOON AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIX IT EVEN IF I HAVE TO REVERSE THE HANDLE AGAIN, BUT FOR NOW I HAVE OTHER PROJECTS. SO MUCH TO DO AND SO LITTLE TIME.

David · 13th June 2012, 02:42 PM

Here's my two cents...

1) I'm not sure why this is necessarily a Western repair. The hilt seems asian and may well have been added by an asian owner.
2) The hilt seems to have some age and to have been in place for some time.
3) Though untraditional it is not particularly unattractive.
4) It seems to have been attached well and securely. I can't tell from the photos though if the baca-baca is engaged/attached to the hilt. If it is that is an extra point for leaving it as is.
5) I don't think we will ever know exactly when, where or why this hilt was added to this kris. Some assumptions have been put forth, but i believe that conjecture is a bit meaningless in this case.

It seems to me that we are often all too interested in "creating" our own perfected/ideal artifacts, upgrading this and changing that to meet our own expectation of what we want out collectable to be. History isn't perfect or ideal. I am not opposed to conservative approaches to restoration, but from my perspective i believe that sometimes we should simply accept a weapon for what it is, especially when we have no direct knowledge of it's history or how or why it has become what it is.

Spunjer · 13th June 2012, 05:33 PM

If you're really so inclined to know dave, if this hilt was a western vs. local addition, you could perform a simple test.
What you're gonna need is a paint stripper heat gun and a pair of Ov Gloves. Place the heat gun on the widest part of the blade and apply heat. Keep it there until it melts the plant resin that was commonly used back then. I'm sure by now you are familiar with the scent. Anything else, like epoxy or glue, would produce a different smell.
Not 100% accuate, but it would be somewhat safe to say it was added back in the islands..
The counter to this would be there's a possibility that if it was redone here, that person could've brought back with him some of the same plant resin, but what are the chances, right?
Not scientific nor 100% accurate, but it's a step closer...

BTW, what's that red looking thingy between the ferrule and the blade?

ThePepperSkull · 14th June 2012, 01:26 AM

^ Very interesting method! I will try that once it gets to me, assuming the pitch is the same material.

As for what the red material is at the base of the blade, I am assuming it is the kind of pitch that the rehilter used, so I am guessing it is not the plant-based pitch we're all used to seeing with Moro blades.

Either that or it's... Dare I say it, a really bad case of rust.

I am hoping it's the former.

kai · 14th June 2012, 07:46 AM

Hello Dave,

Quote:

Either that or it's... Dare I say it, a really bad case of rust.

Could also be some piece of cloth peeking out.

Please let us know how the kris feels/handles when you received it!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 14th June 2012, 07:58 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

If you're really so inclined to know dave, if this hilt was a western vs. local addition, you could perform a simple test.

I agree that it would be worth to check (if only to remove the hilt for a thorough cleaning and etching of the blade): a non resin-based glue would be proof of a modern restoration attempt.

However, the reverse isn't necessarily true: lots of competent modern restorers would also use resin and up until a few decades ago using cutler's resin would have been the default procedure in most parts of the world, including western workshops. An experienced nose may be able to discern between different base resins utilised in the given mix but then again, resins from the archipelago (damar, etc.) have been widely traded for centuries...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 14th June 2012, 08:16 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

1) I'm not sure why this is necessarily a Western repair. The hilt seems asian and may well have been added by an asian owner.

Asian-inspired quite possibly so. Unless you can show me a reasonably matching antique hilt from anywhere in Asia, I'm sticking with my opinion that this hilt is a non-traditional fantasy piece. If so, it doesn't really matter how old it is or where it was crafted (IMO).

Quote:

2) The hilt seems to have some age and to have been in place for some time.

I don't see any wear that would suggest that the sword was actually used with this hilt (other than hanging on a wall) - just a few scratches. The twine used for the grip also looks machine made to me.

Quote:

3) Though untraditional it is not particularly unattractive.

Sorry, I beg to differ.

Quote:

4) It seems to have been attached well and securely. I can't tell from the photos though if the baca-baca is engaged/attached to the hilt. If it is that is an extra point for leaving it as is.

From the pics it looks like the metal strip was soldered to the ferrule? Lets wait for some extra pics from Dave.

Quote:

5) I don't think we will ever know exactly when, where or why this hilt was added to this kris. Some assumptions have been put forth, but i believe that conjecture is a bit meaningless in this case.

Dave hasn't received the kris yet - we are just warming up for a party in a CIS lab.

Quote:

It seems to me that we are often all too interested in "creating" our own perfected/ideal artifacts, upgrading this and changing that to meet our own expectation of what we want out collectable to be. History isn't perfect or ideal. I am not opposed to conservative approaches to restoration, but from my perspective i believe that sometimes we should simply accept a weapon for what it is, especially when we have no direct knowledge of it's history or how or why it has become what it is.

I'm with you to err on the safe side if things can't be verified. I'm fairly confident that a bit of research will help in making an informed decision regarding this hilt though.

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 14th June 2012, 12:43 PM

yo dave,
i'm with kai that it could be a piece of cloth.

kai, yes, the damask was widely used. far as the unscientific test i suggested, the logic behind that is, had it been changed in the western world, i highly doubt whoever did it was a competent restorer.
here's my line of reasoning:if you are indeed correct in your assumption that this particular hilt wasn't original, why would that restorer go to all the trouble of using plant resin just to attached a hilt that is not even typical to this type of sword? and btw, on my suggestion of heating the blade. i meant to say the removal of it is unnecessary. once the plant resin melts, you should be able to smell it. just hold it together for a minute or so until it gets hard again. (dam, that didn't came out right

)
i realize dave doesn't have this kris yet, but for the sake of argument, you said:

Quote:

I suspect this hilt make the kris pretty much dysfunctional.

i would say the same thing have i saw a gasah for the first time.

Quote:

I also have a very hard time to imagine any self-respecting Moro to come up with this weird pommel

we know little of what's out there, kai, really. i'm pretty sure you realize that just in sulu alone, the tausugs back in the day has, i believe, eight or ten different nomenclature for a half-wave/half straight type kalis? so how do we know this is not one of them?

Quote:

a bad (smooth) grip wrapping

the barung and gasah comes to mind as far as smooth grip..

Quote:

with 2 human figures representing a kind of deity outside the Muslim realm?

you're thinking present tense, kai. yes, nowadays, that would never "cut it", but we're talking, back in the days when Folk Islam ruled the majority.Datu Kalun has a crucifix on his kalis (he was a tagalog). also, a barung brought back by mr. hayes has a crucifix engraved on the scabbard. anyone could've done that, but considering the time frame on when it was brought back, i believe it was original. i've quoted this before:

The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899

with that in mind, any of these foreigners could've brought a hilt from his native land, or broke a sword he originally carried, or decided to have a local artisan designed him hilt based on his description, etc, etc. and had it attached to a blade he found in a marketplace, or had the local smith made him one, or a blade he found on a dead moro, etc, etc.

Indianajones · 16th June 2012, 09:54 PM

I also think the first comment (of Kai) is just downright the best;
PLEASE TOSS AWAY THAT FANTASY HANDLE! You could make a better one yourself am sure! Keep the ganja as that is a nice replacement anyway.

Anyone can see the handle is not right. One can start fantasising about how it COULD be correct, but . . .noóóó'.
This blade is beautiful on its own even without blade really! (really beauty-blade!)
It sure is not too dificult to make a handle; find out what form it should have n make it a nice summerholiday project. First attempt may not turn out right but the second will (hopefully). Use a harder (tropical) wood.

Yes thank you guys for being so happy about me ALSO giving my opinion

ThePepperSkull · 5th September 2013, 08:58 AM

A year later update. I still have not touched it. All that was done was that any active rust was removed but really have not removed any patina.

The handle is still on until an origin can be determined. Honestly the more I look at it, the more I feel like it is modern. The wood at the pommel doesn't feel very old and I have a suspicion that the twine wrap is a new material.

The red that you guys mentioned at the base of the blade is some type of resin holding the blade into the hilt.

I thought I'd ask since it's been a little over a year... Am I wrong about the hilt? It seems new to me the more I look at it and I can't determine an origin for the hilt style. It's such an unfamiliar shape.

VANDOO · 5th September 2013, 05:28 PM

IT WILL NOT HURT TO REMOVE THE HANDLE AND ETCH THE BLADE. THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO BETTER ACESS WHAT YOU HAVE AND ACT ON ALL THE SUGGESTIONS ABOVE. I WOULD CONSIDER THIS A CUSTOM PIECE NOT A FANTASY PIECE SOMEONE FOR WHATEVER REASON PUT THIS TOGETHER LIKE IT IS AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE LIKE IT.
YOU HAVE PICTURES AS IT NOW IS AND YOU AN KEEP THE HANDLE IF YOU DECIDE TO MAKE A NEW TRADITIONAL ONE FOR IT. THEN IN CASE YOU SEE AN OLD PICTURE IN THE FUTURE OF SOME FAMOUS PERSON WEARING THIS SWORD YOU WILL STILL HAVE THE PARTS AND PICTURES FOR PROVENANCE.

I AGREE IT WOULD LOOK MUCH BETTER FULLY RESTORED IN TRADITIONAL MORO FITTINGS IF YOU ARE WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY AND FIND THE PERSON TO DO THE WORK.
AS BEFORE NO PRESSURE ITS YOUR BABY AND YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU FEEL BEST. WE LOOK FORWARD TO PICTURES OF A NICE PATTERNED BLADE AFTER THE ETCH.

14th June 2012, 01:26 AM	#4
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	^ Very interesting method! I will try that once it gets to me, assuming the pitch is the same material. As for what the red material is at the base of the blade, I am assuming it is the kind of pitch that the rehilter used, so I am guessing it is not the plant-based pitch we're all used to seeing with Moro blades. Either that or it's... Dare I say it, a really bad case of rust. I am hoping it's the former. Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 14th June 2012 at 03:26 AM.

5th September 2013, 05:28 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WILL NOT HURT TO REMOVE THE HANDLE AND ETCH THE BLADE. THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO BETTER ACESS WHAT YOU HAVE AND ACT ON ALL THE SUGGESTIONS ABOVE. I WOULD CONSIDER THIS A CUSTOM PIECE NOT A FANTASY PIECE SOMEONE FOR WHATEVER REASON PUT THIS TOGETHER LIKE IT IS AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE LIKE IT. YOU HAVE PICTURES AS IT NOW IS AND YOU AN KEEP THE HANDLE IF YOU DECIDE TO MAKE A NEW TRADITIONAL ONE FOR IT. THEN IN CASE YOU SEE AN OLD PICTURE IN THE FUTURE OF SOME FAMOUS PERSON WEARING THIS SWORD YOU WILL STILL HAVE THE PARTS AND PICTURES FOR PROVENANCE. I AGREE IT WOULD LOOK MUCH BETTER FULLY RESTORED IN TRADITIONAL MORO FITTINGS IF YOU ARE WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY AND FIND THE PERSON TO DO THE WORK. AS BEFORE NO PRESSURE ITS YOUR BABY AND YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU FEEL BEST. WE LOOK FORWARD TO PICTURES OF A NICE PATTERNED BLADE AFTER THE ETCH. Last edited by VANDOO; 5th September 2013 at 05:53 PM.

13th June 2012, 03:57 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STRANGELY IT LOOKS OK BUT WHEN YOU PICK IT UP IT FEELS ALL WRONG. I PLAN TO WORK ON IT SOON AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIX IT EVEN IF I HAVE TO REVERSE THE HANDLE AGAIN, BUT FOR NOW I HAVE OTHER PROJECTS. SO MUCH TO DO AND SO LITTLE TIME.

13th June 2012, 02:42 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Here's my two cents... 1) I'm not sure why this is necessarily a Western repair. The hilt seems asian and may well have been added by an asian owner. 2) The hilt seems to have some age and to have been in place for some time. 3) Though untraditional it is not particularly unattractive. 4) It seems to have been attached well and securely. I can't tell from the photos though if the baca-baca is engaged/attached to the hilt. If it is that is an extra point for leaving it as is. 5) I don't think we will ever know exactly when, where or why this hilt was added to this kris. Some assumptions have been put forth, but i believe that conjecture is a bit meaningless in this case. It seems to me that we are often all too interested in "creating" our own perfected/ideal artifacts, upgrading this and changing that to meet our own expectation of what we want out collectable to be. History isn't perfect or ideal. I am not opposed to conservative approaches to restoration, but from my perspective i believe that sometimes we should simply accept a weapon for what it is, especially when we have no direct knowledge of it's history or how or why it has become what it is.

13th June 2012, 05:33 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	If you're really so inclined to know dave, if this hilt was a western vs. local addition, you could perform a simple test. What you're gonna need is a paint stripper heat gun and a pair of Ov Gloves. Place the heat gun on the widest part of the blade and apply heat. Keep it there until it melts the plant resin that was commonly used back then. I'm sure by now you are familiar with the scent. Anything else, like epoxy or glue, would produce a different smell. Not 100% accuate, but it would be somewhat safe to say it was added back in the islands.. The counter to this would be there's a possibility that if it was redone here, that person could've brought back with him some of the same plant resin, but what are the chances, right? Not scientific nor 100% accurate, but it's a step closer... BTW, what's that red looking thingy between the ferrule and the blade?

16th June 2012, 09:54 PM	#9
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	I also think the first comment (of Kai) is just downright the best; PLEASE TOSS AWAY THAT FANTASY HANDLE! You could make a better one yourself am sure! Keep the ganja as that is a nice replacement anyway. Anyone can see the handle is not right. One can start fantasising about how it COULD be correct, but . . .noóóó'. This blade is beautiful on its own even without blade really! (really beauty-blade!) It sure is not too dificult to make a handle; find out what form it should have n make it a nice summerholiday project. First attempt may not turn out right but the second will (hopefully). Use a harder (tropical) wood. Yes thank you guys for being so happy about me ALSO giving my opinion

5th September 2013, 08:58 AM	#10
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	A year later update. I still have not touched it. All that was done was that any active rust was removed but really have not removed any patina. The handle is still on until an origin can be determined. Honestly the more I look at it, the more I feel like it is modern. The wood at the pommel doesn't feel very old and I have a suspicion that the twine wrap is a new material. The red that you guys mentioned at the base of the blade is some type of resin holding the blade into the hilt. I thought I'd ask since it's been a little over a year... Am I wrong about the hilt? It seems new to me the more I look at it and I can't determine an origin for the hilt style. It's such an unfamiliar shape.