Twistcore kris with... erm.. Wha-- What is this?

[mross]

I'm in favor of not messing with it. Here are some of my arguments;
1) From what the pics show the handle and wrap look well done.
2) There does appear to be some age to the rehilt, yes I know that can be faked
3) More importantly; the rehilit incorporated the ferrule and baca-baca. This means someone understood or at least wanted to preserve what was there. I lean toward someone knew what they were doing as these things have a habit of being removed and sold.
4) It's kinda a unique and someone went through some effort to do it that way which means it may have some history behind it.

All that said; nice piece! These are a favorite of mine, so I have fondness for them and like to see them preserved un-altered as much as possible.

[VANDOO]

I THINK ITS GOOD TO GO SLOW WHEN DECIDING TO RE-ARRANGE OR REPLACE THINGS ON A WEAPON. I HAVE HAD THE UNFORTUNATE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING A KRIS HANDLE THOUGHT TO BE ON BACKWARDS TURNED AROUND ONLY TO FIND THE WEAPON WAS THEN OFF BALANCE AND OFF CENTER AND FELT LIKE IT HAD A BENT TANG. THIS RENDERED THAT KERIS A VERY POOR WEAPON WHICH CERTIANLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TOLERATED BY ANY MORO WARRIOR. I TOO CAN'T ABIDE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A SWORD BUT HAS THE BALANCE OF A TIRE IRON.
JUDGE BY WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS USED, AND THE FEEL OF THE WEAPON IN THE HAND.
YOUR EXAMPLE SEEMS TO HAVE A WOOD FOUND IN THE PHILIPPINES AND SOME AGE BUT DOES APPEAR TO HAVE VARNISH ON IT WITH SOME WEAR. IT COULD HAVE BEEN DAMAGED IN BATTLE AND THE HANDLE REPLACED BY SOME NON-MORO PERSON.
WERE THERE ANY ASIAN TROOPS THERE DURING THE SPANISH TIMES OR THE EARLY AMERICAN PRESENCE? THERE WERE CERTIANLY JAPANESE PRESENT DURING WW2 AND CHINESE TRADE GOES WAY BACK IN TIME. AS YOU SAID I WISH THESE THINGS COULD TALK AS MANY INTERESTING STORIES HAVE BEEN LOST.

[ThePepperSkull]

Gentlemen, I am convinced. It stays as-is. The most I will have done to it is a blade cleaning to remove any active rust. Perhaps a vinegar etch at a later time after I've had some more practice etching.

The shape and buddhist iconigraphy on the hilt are very interesting to me... can anyone tell which style the metal fittings come from? This may reveal to us where or whose hands this piece ended up in back in the day. Was buddhism ever practiced in mindanao or could this have been rehilted elsewhere? The "flower" on one of the fittings of the hilt reminds me vaguely of work I have seen on Ban swords of the Lepcha people of india. Were they buddhist? Could this have been a rehilt from the himalayas or region close to?

I THINK ITS GOOD TO GO SLOW WHEN DECIDING TO RE-ARRANGE OR REPLACE THINGS ON A WEAPON.

Agreed, Vandoo! This is partly why I was interested in posting this on the forum. Whether or not a "restoration" was necessary or ethical is something I was unsure about and wnated to defer to the members of this particular message board. Of course, we all will disagree on what may be best for a certain item and i can see the merit in both arguments, I think for now I will leave it as it is. Until we can at least fogure out which culture this interesting rehilt came from.

Originally Posted by mross

I'm in favor of not messing with it. Here are some of my arguments;
1) From what the pics show the handle and wrap look well done.
2) There does appear to be some age to the rehilt, yes I know that can be faked
3) More importantly; the rehilit incorporated the ferrule and baca-baca. This means someone understood or at least wanted to preserve what was there. I lean toward someone knew what they were doing as these things have a habit of being removed and sold.
4) It's kinda a unique and someone went through some effort to do it that way which means it may have some history behind it.

All that said; nice piece! These are a favorite of mine, so I have fondness for them and like to see them preserved un-altered as much as possible.

Reason 3 is something I had never thought of. I have had a few rehilted moro blades (one with a Javanese golok hilt, one with what looked like a Malay sundang hilt) and both of them had evidence of removed baca-baca.

Reason 4 is the main reason why I am hesitant to remove anything or change anything on this piece besides removing any active rust. Like I said beforehand: If only these blades could speak, I wonder what stories this old twistcore would have to tell us.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i'm with vandoo... i don't understand what's the deal with throwing away the handle. it's obvious that it's not a traditional handle, but the moros of your has been known to use non-traditional items on their weapon. added a couple of pictures that have i not known the provenance of this particular shield, i would definitely thought of it as a western addition. the bottle bottom bosed is a pre-1898 shield. it would be a pity if you throw the handle away and somehow come to find out, this was original to the sword.
nice twisty core, brah! can't wait to see after you clean the blade. hopefully etched to bring out all her splendid beauty!!!

That, my friend is an interesting piece!

I'm leaning more towards this being procured somehow by someone of another culture and then rehiltd to suit that particularr person's needs as opposed to being a moro-done rehilt.

And about it being etched -- you and me both, brah. As polar opposite as some of us may feel about its current furniture (I myself am still conflicted but am still keeping it as-is), I'm sure all of us Kris fanatics like a good twistcore pattern.

[kai]

Hello Dave,

The shape and buddhist iconigraphy on the hilt are very interesting to me... can anyone tell which style the metal fittings come from? This may reveal to us where or whose hands this piece ended up in back in the day. Was buddhism ever practiced in mindanao or could this have been rehilted elsewhere? The "flower" on one of the fittings of the hilt reminds me vaguely of work I have seen on Ban swords of the Lepcha people of india. Were they buddhist? Could this have been a rehilt from the himalayas or region close to?

I am not aware of any traditional hilt/pommel like this (limiting things to hindu/buddhist-influenced ethnic groups). Regional powers that would have been in contact with the Moro groups during the last 50-150 years include Balinese, Thai, Khmer, Chaam, and coastal East Asia. AFAIK, none of these fits the bill.

Reason 3 is something I had never thought of. I have had a few rehilted moro blades (one with a Javanese golok hilt, one with what looked like a Malay sundang hilt) and both of them had evidence of removed baca-baca.

It's quite traditional throughout the Malay communities to utilize Moro trade blades and to avoid the clamps when refurbishing sundang to local tastes. Obviously, western restoration work may follow different concepts.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Barry,

I THINK ITS GOOD TO GO SLOW WHEN DECIDING TO RE-ARRANGE OR REPLACE THINGS ON A WEAPON.

Sure, no need to hurry with any decisions.

I HAVE HAD THE UNFORTUNATE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING A KRIS HANDLE THOUGHT TO BE ON BACKWARDS TURNED AROUND ONLY TO FIND THE WEAPON WAS THEN OFF BALANCE AND OFF CENTER AND FELT LIKE IT HAD A BENT TANG. THIS RENDERED THAT KERIS A VERY POOR WEAPON WHICH CERTIANLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TOLERATED BY ANY MORO WARRIOR.

Any pics of this piece? Sounds weird but at least this is reversible and you would never have known without trying...

Regards,
Kai

[VANDOO]

STRANGELY IT LOOKS OK BUT WHEN YOU PICK IT UP IT FEELS ALL WRONG. I PLAN TO WORK ON IT SOON AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIX IT EVEN IF I HAVE TO REVERSE THE HANDLE AGAIN, BUT FOR NOW I HAVE OTHER PROJECTS. SO MUCH TO DO AND SO LITTLE TIME.

[David]

Here's my two cents...
1) I'm not sure why this is necessarily a Western repair. The hilt seems asian and may well have been added by an asian owner.
2) The hilt seems to have some age and to have been in place for some time.
3) Though untraditional it is not particularly unattractive.
4) It seems to have been attached well and securely. I can't tell from the photos though if the baca-baca is engaged/attached to the hilt. If it is that is an extra point for leaving it as is.
5) I don't think we will ever know exactly when, where or why this hilt was added to this kris. Some assumptions have been put forth, but i believe that conjecture is a bit meaningless in this case.

It seems to me that we are often all too interested in "creating" our own perfected/ideal artifacts, upgrading this and changing that to meet our own expectation of what we want out collectable to be. History isn't perfect or ideal. I am not opposed to conservative approaches to restoration, but from my perspective i believe that sometimes we should simply accept a weapon for what it is, especially when we have no direct knowledge of it's history or how or why it has become what it is.

[Spunjer]

If you're really so inclined to know dave, if this hilt was a western vs. local addition, you could perform a simple test.
What you're gonna need is a paint stripper heat gun and a pair of Ov Gloves. Place the heat gun on the widest part of the blade and apply heat. Keep it there until it melts the plant resin that was commonly used back then. I'm sure by now you are familiar with the scent. Anything else, like epoxy or glue, would produce a different smell.
Not 100% accuate, but it would be somewhat safe to say it was added back in the islands..
The counter to this would be there's a possibility that if it was redone here, that person could've brought back with him some of the same plant resin, but what are the chances, right?
Not scientific nor 100% accurate, but it's a step closer...

BTW, what's that red looking thingy between the ferrule and the blade?

[ThePepperSkull]

^ Very interesting method! I will try that once it gets to me, assuming the pitch is the same material.

As for what the red material is at the base of the blade, I am assuming it is the kind of pitch that the rehilter used, so I am guessing it is not the plant-based pitch we're all used to seeing with Moro blades.

Either that or it's... Dare I say it, a really bad case of rust.

I am hoping it's the former.

[kai]

Hello Ron,

If you're really so inclined to know dave, if this hilt was a western vs. local addition, you could perform a simple test.

I agree that it would be worth to check (if only to remove the hilt for a thorough cleaning and etching of the blade): a non resin-based glue would be proof of a modern restoration attempt.

However, the reverse isn't necessarily true: lots of competent modern restorers would also use resin and up until a few decades ago using cutler's resin would have been the default procedure in most parts of the world, including western workshops. An experienced nose may be able to discern between different base resins utilised in the given mix but then again, resins from the archipelago (damar, etc.) have been widely traded for centuries...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

1) I'm not sure why this is necessarily a Western repair. The hilt seems asian and may well have been added by an asian owner.

Asian-inspired quite possibly so. Unless you can show me a reasonably matching antique hilt from anywhere in Asia, I'm sticking with my opinion that this hilt is a non-traditional fantasy piece. If so, it doesn't really matter how old it is or where it was crafted (IMO).

2) The hilt seems to have some age and to have been in place for some time.

I don't see any wear that would suggest that the sword was actually used with this hilt (other than hanging on a wall) - just a few scratches. The twine used for the grip also looks machine made to me.

3) Though untraditional it is not particularly unattractive.

Sorry, I beg to differ.

4) It seems to have been attached well and securely. I can't tell from the photos though if the baca-baca is engaged/attached to the hilt. If it is that is an extra point for leaving it as is.

From the pics it looks like the metal strip was soldered to the ferrule? Lets wait for some extra pics from Dave.

5) I don't think we will ever know exactly when, where or why this hilt was added to this kris. Some assumptions have been put forth, but i believe that conjecture is a bit meaningless in this case.

Dave hasn't received the kris yet - we are just warming up for a party in a CIS lab.

It seems to me that we are often all too interested in "creating" our own perfected/ideal artifacts, upgrading this and changing that to meet our own expectation of what we want out collectable to be. History isn't perfect or ideal. I am not opposed to conservative approaches to restoration, but from my perspective i believe that sometimes we should simply accept a weapon for what it is, especially when we have no direct knowledge of it's history or how or why it has become what it is.

I'm with you to err on the safe side if things can't be verified. I'm fairly confident that a bit of research will help in making an informed decision regarding this hilt though.

Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

yo dave,
i'm with kai that it could be a piece of cloth.

kai, yes, the damask was widely used. far as the unscientific test i suggested, the logic behind that is, had it been changed in the western world, i highly doubt whoever did it was a competent restorer.
here's my line of reasoning:if you are indeed correct in your assumption that this particular hilt wasn't original, why would that restorer go to all the trouble of using plant resin just to attached a hilt that is not even typical to this type of sword? and btw, on my suggestion of heating the blade. i meant to say the removal of it is unnecessary. once the plant resin melts, you should be able to smell it. just hold it together for a minute or so until it gets hard again. (dam, that didn't came out right )
i realize dave doesn't have this kris yet, but for the sake of argument, you said:

I suspect this hilt make the kris pretty much dysfunctional.

i would say the same thing have i saw a gasah for the first time.

I also have a very hard time to imagine any self-respecting Moro to come up with this weird pommel

we know little of what's out there, kai, really. i'm pretty sure you realize that just in sulu alone, the tausugs back in the day has, i believe, eight or ten different nomenclature for a half-wave/half straight type kalis? so how do we know this is not one of them?

a bad (smooth) grip wrapping

the barung and gasah comes to mind as far as smooth grip..

with 2 human figures representing a kind of deity outside the Muslim realm?

you're thinking present tense, kai. yes, nowadays, that would never "cut it", but we're talking, back in the days when Folk Islam ruled the majority.Datu Kalun has a crucifix on his kalis (he was a tagalog). also, a barung brought back by mr. hayes has a crucifix engraved on the scabbard. anyone could've done that, but considering the time frame on when it was brought back, i believe it was original. i've quoted this before:

The Sulu Archipelago seems to have become the dumping ground for the Oriental world. Here you find renegade Arabs; native Indian soldiers, for whom India has become too hot; even the Sudan, bad as it is, occasionally has a man so bad, he has to drift to Sulu. Like a Western mining camp of old, Sulu is full of adventure. - John F. Bass, Harper's Weekly, November 18, 1899

with that in mind, any of these foreigners could've brought a hilt from his native land, or broke a sword he originally carried, or decided to have a local artisan designed him hilt based on his description, etc, etc. and had it attached to a blade he found in a marketplace, or had the local smith made him one, or a blade he found on a dead moro, etc, etc.

[kai]

I'm in favor of not messing with it.

I have no real stake in this since the current caretaker is entitled to make a wise decision. Please allow a few comments though to explain my reasoning:

1) From what the pics show the handle and wrap look well done.

Certainly not a traditional grip wrap (i.e. not any Moro style) and I would be surprised if the flared pommel doesn't come in the way when "playing" with the sword.

2) There does appear to be some age to the rehilt, yes I know that can be faked

Very possibly vintage. Extra points for an old mistake, anyone?

3) More importantly; the rehilit incorporated the ferrule and baca-baca. This means someone understood or at least wanted to preserve what was there. I lean toward someone knew what they were doing as these things have a habit of being removed and sold.

Would have anyone with a passing knowledge of Moro kris pommels come up with this flared pommel including a brass cap?

4) It's kinda a unique and someone went through some effort to do it that way which means it may have some history behind it.

Ok, don't toss it but keep it in a drawer (I never throw collection pieces away). IMVHO keeping this combo "as is" is a disgrace to the neat blade though.

All that said; nice piece! These are a favorite of mine, so I have fondness for them and like to see them preserved un-altered as much as possible.

I'm with you regarding preserving genuine pieces. I don't see any point in preserving mistakes that most likely have been done outside the originating culture by people with possibly good intentions but obviously very limited knowledge.

Regards,
Kai

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by kai

Ok, don't toss it but keep it in a drawer (I never throw collection pieces away). IMVHO keeping this combo "as is" is a disgrace to the neat blade though.


I'm with you regarding preserving genuine pieces. I don't see any point in preserving mistakes that most likely have been done outside the originating culture by people with possibly good intentions but obviously very limited knowledge.

Regards,
Kai

And now I find myself even more conflicted, as these are some very good points. I can see both sides of the argument at this point.

I am interested to see where this goes, but I feel I must remind us all that we are friends here and as different as our opinions get, we will benefit from discourse and dialogue rather than argumentative back-and-forths. Hasn't happened yet, but I thought I'd pre-empt it before it gets heated and degenerates into something less civil.

I await all of your responses!

[VANDOO]

THERE IS NO PROBLEM, NO PRESSURE
WE ALL HAVE OUR INDIVIDUAL WAYS OF LOOKING AT COLLECTING.
FROM A STRICTLY PURE MORO IDEAL A GOOD OLD MORO HANDLE , PERHAPS WITH A WELL PATINATED IVORY COCATOOA CIRC 1890 WOULD LOOK GREAT ON THIS BLADE. AND WHILE WE ARE WISHING A GOOD OLD SCABBARD THAT FITS WITH SILVER. THAT WOULD RESTORE THIS BLADE TO ITS OLD GLORY AND BE AS CLOSE TO ORIGINAL AS POSSIBLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WOULD BE MY CHOICE IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. BUT TO COME UP WITH THESE TRULY OLD QUALITY ITEMS IS ALSO LIKELY WISHFUL THINKING.
TO HAVE NEWLY MADE HANDLE AND FITTINGS AND SCABBARD IS JUST NOT THE SAME IN MY VIEW. TO DO IT PROPERLY WOULD BE QUITE EXPENSIVE AND YOU MAY NOT BE COMPLETELY SATISFIED WITH THE RESULTS WHEN DONE.
THE BLADE SURELY DOES NEED A GOOD ETCH TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE AT ITS BEST. SO THE HANDLE CAN BE REMOVED FOR THAT IF YOU WANT. CHECK INSIDE THE HANDLE TO SEE APPROX AGE AS WELL TO LOOK AND SEE IF THERE ARE ANY BUDHIST PRAYERS ON PAPER WITHIN.
I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN HOW THE SWORD HANDLES AND FEELS IN USE. IT IS SUGGESTED THE HANDLE WOULD MAKE ITS USE AWKWARD BUT IT DOSEN'T LOOK MUCH DIFFERENT IN SIZE FROM SOME MORO COCATOOA HILTS IVE SEEN AND SMALLER THAN THE GIANT IVORY ONES WHICH ARE A BIT UNWIELDLY.
I JUST THINK AN ATTEMPT SHOULD BE MADE TO FIND OUT HOW AND WHY AND PERPHAPS BY WHOM THIS KRIS WAS CUSTOMIZED BY A PREVIOUS OWNER AND TO KEEP IT WITH THE KRIS WHEN IT IS PASSED ON TO ITS NEXT HOME IN THE FAR FUTURE. IN THE MEANTIME DO AS YOU WISH AND ENJOY IT AND DON'T FEEL GUILTY REGARDLESS OF YOUR DECISIONS.