Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2012, 05:17 PM

Thank you so much for the update on this ever unresolved conundrum of the unique 'flyssa' Emanuel!!! Your tenacity is amazing and this is absolutely wonderful followup, exactly what is essential to discovering the deeply clouded past and development of these and many ethnographic sword forms.

Since the work of Ms. LaCoste, few arms scholars have undertaken any sort of serious approach to these mysterious and distinct swords aside from Louis-Pierre Cavalliere and you, leaving most of the description of these to the typical assumptions.

As you have noted, the apparant form itself seems to have been developed by the time of this example presented to the Spanish envoy in 1827. It seems that along with the form itself, many of the decorative designs and motif are essentially like the examples into the 1850s and beyond, and I have always been fascinated by thier origins and meanings as well. Here again, these do not seem to have been studied or analyzed beyond the work of LaCoste, and attempts to discuss them have not revealed much.

I recall however some years ago trying to learn more about an unusual 'hourglass' shaped image or device on the blade of one example I had which seemed unusual. As nearly as could be determined this represented a drum, an important symbol of rank or status in Berber and Saharan tribal heirachy.

It seems that the ancestry of the flyssa debate remains at a level of impasse and has been dormant for years with some still contesting the probable source of these unique swords to Ottoman yataghans. While it seems clear that Byzantine decorative motif is likely in the characteristic designs in much of the flyssa's motif, the deep bellied blade seems likely to derive from the early versions of the yataghan. The early Meditteranean weapons that are claimed to be the true ancestors probably are in degree through the same groups of swords that indeed came from the kopis and associated variations. However there is no progressive chronological line of development which can support direct descent from the ancient weapons, and the relatively recent development in my opinion looks to the Ottoman yataghan of straight back and deep belly form.
Interestly there is an example or possibly form of this type known in Italy from the 18th century (seen in Boccia & Coelho) which looks remarkably like the flyssa. This of course begs the question, did these also develop from the Ottoman weapons from the conflicts between them and the North Italian city states, and could the form have diffused through the profound trade in North Africa and North Italy? Clearly other Italian forms have been the source of influence for numbers of North African edged weapons well established in these pages on the forum, so is this a plausible suggestion?

The only qualifying suggestion that might redirect to the Ottoman influence without the Italian twist is that the Kabyles, while not as I understand ever taken over by the Ottomans, had powerful influence from them. The flyssa is held in Kabyle tradition as the key element in a young mans rite of passage, and he must obtain his sword as well as his 'fortune' in order to marry (as I was once told). While the traditional flyssa of course is the standard however the yataghan is admired even beyond these, and I wonder if that affinity for these Ottoman weapons as influential symbols of status may have led to the earlier and distinctly Berber form which has become known as the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 15th June 2012, 05:12 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for coming in on this

I will look for the Boccia & Coelho reference you mention. Are you thinking of a sword like the storta?

I will be back home in a few days and will upload higher resolution pics of this flyssa and others and maybe make an inventory of all the markings on the documented examples. I will also check them with those reported by Lacoste-Dujardin.

The flyssa's misteries have not been exhausted yet

All the best!
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2012, 05:32 AM

Hi Emanuel,
Actually I think the Boccia & Coelho example is more like a dagger, I'll see if I can possibly get a scan of the illustration. It is a monster book and not sure my scanner will allow, maybe a photo will do.

Looking forward to the pics and inventory of the markings in LaCoste....absolutely the mysteries of the flyssa remain elusive, but they cannot be forever with you on the trail!!

Its good to have you back here on the adventure!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 09:59 AM

Hi Jim!

Been a while, and back in India for round 2.
Haven't gotten around to any of that inventory work I'm afraid. I am going to add some detail shots of this flyssa however. Unfortunately the Real Armeria only saw it fit to send me one picture, of one side only. No idea of what the spine or the other side looks like. Oh well...

All the best and drive safe!
Emanuel

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 10:01 AM

The blade...

Emanuel · 4th October 2012, 10:03 AM

And the scabbard...

Notice the decoration surrounding the belt loop, doesn't it look a lot like fabric? It's like the scabbard maker chose to mimic the look of woven garments into the scabbard.

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2012, 12:45 AM

Fantastic Emanuel!!!! and its wonderful having you back here again. I think we have come a long way on the flyssa mysteries, but as you know, a long way to go. We have some great projects going on a number of the weapons forms, and its good to have you back with your specialty in these.
India!!!?? How long will you be there?

All the very best,
Jim

4th October 2012, 10:01 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The blade... Attached Images

4th October 2012, 10:03 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And the scabbard... Notice the decoration surrounding the belt loop, doesn't it look a lot like fabric? It's like the scabbard maker chose to mimic the look of woven garments into the scabbard. Attached Images

6th June 2012, 05:17 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Thank you so much for the update on this ever unresolved conundrum of the unique 'flyssa' Emanuel!!! Your tenacity is amazing and this is absolutely wonderful followup, exactly what is essential to discovering the deeply clouded past and development of these and many ethnographic sword forms. Since the work of Ms. LaCoste, few arms scholars have undertaken any sort of serious approach to these mysterious and distinct swords aside from Louis-Pierre Cavalliere and you, leaving most of the description of these to the typical assumptions. As you have noted, the apparant form itself seems to have been developed by the time of this example presented to the Spanish envoy in 1827. It seems that along with the form itself, many of the decorative designs and motif are essentially like the examples into the 1850s and beyond, and I have always been fascinated by thier origins and meanings as well. Here again, these do not seem to have been studied or analyzed beyond the work of LaCoste, and attempts to discuss them have not revealed much. I recall however some years ago trying to learn more about an unusual 'hourglass' shaped image or device on the blade of one example I had which seemed unusual. As nearly as could be determined this represented a drum, an important symbol of rank or status in Berber and Saharan tribal heirachy. It seems that the ancestry of the flyssa debate remains at a level of impasse and has been dormant for years with some still contesting the probable source of these unique swords to Ottoman yataghans. While it seems clear that Byzantine decorative motif is likely in the characteristic designs in much of the flyssa's motif, the deep bellied blade seems likely to derive from the early versions of the yataghan. The early Meditteranean weapons that are claimed to be the true ancestors probably are in degree through the same groups of swords that indeed came from the kopis and associated variations. However there is no progressive chronological line of development which can support direct descent from the ancient weapons, and the relatively recent development in my opinion looks to the Ottoman yataghan of straight back and deep belly form. Interestly there is an example or possibly form of this type known in Italy from the 18th century (seen in Boccia & Coelho) which looks remarkably like the flyssa. This of course begs the question, did these also develop from the Ottoman weapons from the conflicts between them and the North Italian city states, and could the form have diffused through the profound trade in North Africa and North Italy? Clearly other Italian forms have been the source of influence for numbers of North African edged weapons well established in these pages on the forum, so is this a plausible suggestion? The only qualifying suggestion that might redirect to the Ottoman influence without the Italian twist is that the Kabyles, while not as I understand ever taken over by the Ottomans, had powerful influence from them. The flyssa is held in Kabyle tradition as the key element in a young mans rite of passage, and he must obtain his sword as well as his 'fortune' in order to marry (as I was once told). While the traditional flyssa of course is the standard however the yataghan is admired even beyond these, and I wonder if that affinity for these Ottoman weapons as influential symbols of status may have led to the earlier and distinctly Berber form which has become known as the flyssa. All best regards, Jim

15th June 2012, 05:12 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, Thanks for coming in on this I will look for the Boccia & Coelho reference you mention. Are you thinking of a sword like the storta? I will be back home in a few days and will upload higher resolution pics of this flyssa and others and maybe make an inventory of all the markings on the documented examples. I will also check them with those reported by Lacoste-Dujardin. The flyssa's misteries have not been exhausted yet All the best! Emanuel

15th June 2012, 05:32 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Emanuel, Actually I think the Boccia & Coelho example is more like a dagger, I'll see if I can possibly get a scan of the illustration. It is a monster book and not sure my scanner will allow, maybe a photo will do. Looking forward to the pics and inventory of the markings in LaCoste....absolutely the mysteries of the flyssa remain elusive, but they cannot be forever with you on the trail!! Its good to have you back here on the adventure! All the best, Jim

4th October 2012, 09:59 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim! Been a while, and back in India for round 2. Haven't gotten around to any of that inventory work I'm afraid. I am going to add some detail shots of this flyssa however. Unfortunately the Real Armeria only saw it fit to send me one picture, of one side only. No idea of what the spine or the other side looks like. Oh well... All the best and drive safe! Emanuel

5th October 2012, 12:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Fantastic Emanuel!!!! and its wonderful having you back here again. I think we have come a long way on the flyssa mysteries, but as you know, a long way to go. We have some great projects going on a number of the weapons forms, and its good to have you back with your specialty in these. India!!!?? How long will you be there? All the very best, Jim