LIVING UP TO ACADEMIC STANDARDS

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lew

Salaams Ibrahiim

Most PhDs have degrees it art and minor history or are doctorates in history with a dual doctorate in art there are few doctorates handed out specially for historical arms and armor. So certification from an accredited college is really not the way to go. As far as having a separate section of the forum I don't think it will float with the rest of the team. There would be too many legal hassles to over come.

Lew

Salaams Lew ~ Thank you for your reply and points noted are understood particularly on the legal issues, however, Forum has produced what is probably the finest resource in this field and notwithstanding the inability of universities to recognise the specialisations contained within our "society" to date ~ Does this mean they will forever be in denial ?

I hope that I am not straying too far from the original post in bringing this subject to the table. I should also add that I speak not only of certification at the top end but at all levels as required, therefor, as a broad and general approach to the betterment of all concerned I would advise certification at juniour, intermediate and senior levels; 75% of which could be administered by the forum without recourse to accrediting bodies. Naturally when I speak about degrees and doctorates of excellence that would need underpinning for example by SOAS. The School of Oriental and African Studies or similar.

It is understandable that peoples approach when you mention intellectuals and academics can be sometimes negative but this is a very passe reaction because nowadays Universities (by definition) are for everyone as are its rewards. It seems to me that since we are at the forefront of research in the vast majority of chosen sub-fields of historical weaponry that we ought to benefit from that.

Having the added responsibility for leading the project into the educational sector is something we ought to take on with open arms... since we are leaders in the field.

It would probably change nothing but it would probably enhance everything.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

With all due respect, the last thing I'd like to see this Forum turn into is an internet-based, correspondence-style degree granting entity. There is always the University of Phoenix and a multitude of other fly-by-night operations advertising on the late-night TV.

The purpose and the level of internet Fora differ from the legitimate departments of history/art/archeology etc at real universities. The latter require focussed career paths, total dedication to the profession and the field, much more stringent criteria of proof, deeper and more focussed topics, peer-reviewed publications and structured educational backgrounds.

This is not to say that museums do not make mistakes and that an amateur collector cannot make a valuable minor contribution to the field, but the whole structure of science has changed over the past 200 years. It is no longer the province of a "gentleman-scientist", but of a consummate professional. None of us would dream about spending months and years in multiple libraries, digging out original references ( not other books, written by true professionals!), translating obscure texts, delving into esoteric fields to find a snippet of paleographic information etc, etc, etc, - just to describe a fragment of a rusty sword in the storage room of some forgotten museum. I suggest to my potential opponents to read a chapter on persian daggers by Ivanov in the Elgood's monograph on islamic arms to understand whom do they propose we start competing with :-)

To think that you and I can suddenly and magically produce a professional treatise on arms and armour akin to Elgood's books, is just as realistic as expecting Elgood to write credible articles on signal transduction, system analysis, molecular biology, topology or engineering of bridges.

All of us have our own careers and we should strive to advance within their frameworks. Arms and armour is our mutual hobby and it gives us a lot of freedom to advance crazy ideas, ask naive questions, make silly mistakes , - all without detriment to our professional reputation. This is our enormous advantage over the professionals, and we should rejoice that this and other Fora give us a suitable platform for such games, a small intellectual sandbox where no professional arm historian would dare to be seen.

With best wishes to all.

[Rich]

I would tend to disagree with making this an accredited academic forum. There are few (I don't know of any offhand) accredited universities that grant doctorates in ancient or ethnographic weapons. There is also the problem of who on the forum would be responsible for verifying the poster's degree and the accreditation of the institution? Of course there are many internet sites where you can purchase a degree of any level in any topic you wish. We have lots of knowledgeable folks on the forum and (as a scientist) I also consider any reply as an opinion not necessarily as absolute fact. Let's leave well enough alone.

Rich S
------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

The Japanese Sword Index
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm


"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
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[Mefidk]

I'd like to support the last two points of view.
I do this for fun, and because its great to learn more, but if it became 'accredited' and I suddenly began to feel that I should up my game, then it would be just like work, and the fun would go out of it pretty fast. Like a number of others here (as far as I can gather), I am also a professional academic in a whole other field, and that functions nothing like the EAA forum. The differences being that 1) by and large most people here are happy to share and help those just starting out or asking questions because they would like to learn more. 2) here you can make mistakes, use the smiley and not worry - this should not be confused with professional academic practice.
The forum makes a fantastic contribution to the knowledge in the area precisely because anyone can contribute and people feel relaxed about doing this regardless of their status. So my personal point of view is please leave the friendly and well functioning forum alone.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Lew ~ Thank you for your reply and points noted are understood particularly on the legal issues, however, Forum has produced what is probably the finest resource in this field

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The relaxed, informal approach that we have taken for the last 15 years or more is the very thing that has made Vikingsword "probably the finest resource in this field" .

If it ain't broke, don't fix it .....

[Spunjer]

great suggestion, ibrahiim, but as m eley so eloquently explained, adding another section would further erode this forum.

Originally Posted by Rick

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The relaxed, informal approach that we have taken for the last 15 years or more is the very thing that has made Vikingsword "probably the finest resource in this field" .

If it ain't broke, don't fix it .....

classy response, rick! as always, you exemplifies what a fair forum moderator should be.

[VANDOO]

I UNDERSTAND THE PASSION OF AN IDEA!. I ONCE POSTED THAT IT WAS TIME SOMEONE UPDATED AND CORRECTED STONES GLOSSARY OF ARMS AND ARMOR.
HOW ONE MAN DID THAT MUCH IN ONE LIFETIME IS BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT WORK WITH A LARGE TEAM AND UNLIMITED FUNDS TODAY.
THE IDEA OF MAKEING SOME KIND OF UNIVERSITY OUT OF THIS FORUM IS NOT POSSIBLE AS THAT IS NOT WHAT THE FORUM IS ABOUT.
BUT PERHAPS MEMBERS OF LIKE MINDS MAY MEET AND GET TOGETHER HERE VIA E- MAIL OR PM AND WORK TOGETHER ON PROJECTS OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS. TRAINED PEOPLE IN THESE MANY FIELDS OF INTREST ARE SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED AS THEY ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO WRITE THE REFRENCES WE ALL SEARCH FOR.
I WOULD THINK LOOKING INTO THE COURSES REQUIRED FOR BEING A MUSEUM CURATOR AND CONSERVATOR WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START. LIKE UPDATEING STONES ITS NOT A BAD IDEA, BUT A LOT OF WORK AND THE RIGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE AND STAY DEDICATED WOULD BE NECESSARY FOR SUCH A LARGE UNDERTAKEING.
I FIND NOTHING OFFENSIVE IN THESE COMMENTS AND THINK THE POSTS IN THE TOPIC ARE INTERESTING AND CAN SEE MERIT IN THE IDEA BUT THE FORUM IS AN ARCHIVE WHICH CAN BE VALUABLE TO ANY ACCREDITED PEOPLE BUT IS NOT UP TO TRAINING THEM.

THE FORUM IS WHAT IT IS AND I LIKE IT AS IS. IDEAS ARE PART OF WHAT WE DO HERE EVEN IF MAKING THEM WORK OFTEN HAS TO OCCUR OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS WE ALL BENIFIT IN THE END. AS DAVID POINTS OUT GROUPS HAVE BEEN FORMED HERE BASED ON IDEAS IN THE PAST SO HOPEFULLY THIS WILL CONTINUE AND RESULT IN GOOD THINGS IN THE FUTURE.

[David]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BUT PERHAPS MEMBERS OF LIKE MINDS MAY MEET AND GET TOGETHER HERE VIA E- MAIL OR PM AND WORK TOGETHER ON PROJECTS OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS. TRAINED PEOPLE IN THESE MANY FIELDS OF INTREST ARE SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED AS THEY ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO WRITE THE REFRENCES WE ALL SEARCH FOR.

Barry, i think this has happened on numerous occasions and would most certainly encourage like minded forumites to to form outside projects to these Forums.

[Emanuel]

Hi all,

Ibrahim, six years ago I had asked about the possibility of publishing forum content in some form or other, recognizing the value of the informal expertise (experience) in this forum. The issues and difficulties with the idea identified then were the same identified above. Some support was voiced, however, for sending out proceedings from forum meetings/talks in electronic format. Something in the vein of the Timonium seminar.

Such a thing requires organization, investment in time and money and considerable dedication. And it requires consistent participation. Perhaps more than most of the members here are looking for. While immensely grateful to Lee and Oriental-Arms for their sponsorship of the forum and of the Timonium event, I gather that most members here come to the forum for its pleasant informality and ease of use.

Publishing or formal accreditation is simply beyond what most people want from this forum

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I UNDERSTAND THE PASSION OF AN IDEA!. I ONCE POSTED THAT IT WAS TIME SOMEONE UPDATED AND CORRECTED STONES GLOSSARY OF ARMS AND ARMOR.
HOW ONE MAN DID THAT MUCH IN ONE LIFETIME IS BEYOND MY UNDERSTANDING, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT WORK WITH A LARGE TEAM AND UNLIMITED FUNDS TODAY.
THE IDEA OF MAKEING SOME KIND OF UNIVERSITY OUT OF THIS FORUM IS NOT POSSIBLE AS THAT IS NOT WHAT THE FORUM IS ABOUT.
BUT PERHAPS MEMBERS OF LIKE MINDS MAY MEET AND GET TOGETHER HERE VIA E- MAIL OR PM AND WORK TOGETHER ON PROJECTS OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS. TRAINED PEOPLE IN THESE MANY FIELDS OF INTREST ARE SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED AS THEY ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO WRITE THE REFRENCES WE ALL SEARCH FOR.
I WOULD THINK LOOKING INTO THE COURSES REQUIRED FOR BEING A MUSEUM CURATOR AND CONSERVATOR WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START. LIKE UPDATEING STONES ITS NOT A BAD IDEA, BUT A LOT OF WORK AND THE RIGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE AND STAY DEDICATED WOULD BE NECESSARY FOR SUCH A LARGE UNDERTAKEING.
I FIND NOTHING OFFENSIVE IN THESE COMMENTS AND THINK THE POSTS IN THE TOPIC ARE INTERESTING AND CAN SEE MERIT IN THE IDEA BUT THE FORUM IS AN ARCHIVE WHICH CAN BE VALUABLE TO ANY ACCREDITED PEOPLE BUT IS NOT UP TO TRAINING THEM.

THE FORUM IS WHAT IT IS AND I LIKE IT AS IS. IDEAS ARE PART OF WHAT WE DO HERE EVEN IF MAKING THEM WORK OFTEN HAS TO OCCUR OUTSIDE OF THE FORUMS WE ALL BENIFIT IN THE END. AS DAVID POINTS OUT GROUPS HAVE BEEN FORMED HERE BASED ON IDEAS IN THE PAST SO HOPEFULLY THIS WILL CONTINUE AND RESULT IN GOOD THINGS IN THE FUTURE.

Salaams Vandoo ~ Last point first; I like it the way it is too !
You are corect to point out that there has been nothing offensive in anything I've written; I have never advocated turning the forum into a school or a university, moreover, I have suggested a small separate department dealing with certification mainly at low and intermediate levels and the ability to go for degree study on line. It was never my intention to create a major earthquake or schism ~ I think your question on Stones is quite understandable and I can name a few other books that need a good sort out including Burtons Book of The Sword and others. Most people see mistake after mistake in museums mainly because "some" curators aren't aware of the detail and on their degree courses ethnographic arms and armour was not covered. (Please ignore if you are a Museum Curator since if you are reading this you are indeed aware of EAA !! )
With respect; I think we are more than an archive. Neither do I think we are there only to be used by degree holders or above to enhance their research. Perhaps this goes to the near root of the debate in that we could enable our members to achieve (if they so wish) certification in their chosen field. I thank you for floating the debate and if I have steered it in an untoward direction I do apologise.

To anyone who has joined the debate I say thank you and a few lines to some of the participants follows but thanks to all !

Ariel; Thank you for your kind words!
Emanuel; I agree with your idea on information being made available ~ Its not a bad point. At least it could be written up and logged into the library. Im sure that can be done.
Spunger; Yes I can see what you mean but they said that about going to the moon.
Mefidk; I quite agree; well put.
M Eley; I agree. It wouldn't change; it would be enhanced.
Fernando; It seems so.
Lew; You seem to be correct.
Dmitry; Did you know that you can get a Phd in "Elvis Presley" in the USA?
Edster; Great reply thanks for all of that. Very encouraging.

David; You have pointed out the difficult hurdles to overcome in the application of this facility concept which appears to be a non starter in your opinion.
I find that hard to follow since the resource is a thoroughly excellent and professional one. Here we have a brilliant retrieval system based on ethnographic arms and armour in a burgeoning library stuffed with research at all levels and it just grows and grows. It is bigger than the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. This vast collection of posts is too big to ignore. My view is that it should be brought onto the world stage as a perfectly respectable certificated program series.. up to degree level and therefor beyond to Phd. It is, however, only my view.

I was having a conversation recently with a particular Sheikh with rather a lot of funds to spare and the question arose that he was looking for something educational in which to support. Just something in the region of a couple of million dollars. By the way Arabs love ethnographical arms and armour and are crazy about historical stuff which is why Guggenheim and Louvre and Co. are scrambling to get a foothold here. I thought about the Forum and this subject. Naturally I made no mention, nor will I, since commercial and financial aspects of Forum are none of my business but it struck a chord and is worth a mention if only on passing. He didn't like the idea of investing in my new Porche ...

Lest I forget I can assure you that there is never any malice in anything I write and the passing spaceship jibe (that you rewrote) was just a light joke.

I am fully aware of the components required to administer certificate and degree courses and have already agreed with Lew and others as to the difficulty in so doing, though, from my viewpoint, from the administrative and legal viewpoint only.

To me it would make perfect sense.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Granting degrees is a no-no.
But updating Stone's Glossary, at least its "eastern" aspects, may not be such a bad idea. I am sure that the book will find a publisher and an audience.
See, I am not averse to expressing cockamamie ideas, too :-)

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

But updating Stone's Glossary, at least its "eastern" aspects, may not be such a bad idea. I am sure that the book will find a publisher and an audience.
See, I am not averse to expressing cockamamie ideas, too :-)

This would undoubtable be a great (though arduous) project. There is no reason whatsoever that a group of interested forumites could not embark upon such a task if they had the time and inclination. I don't see why such a project would need forum sanction, accreditation or approve, simply the will of those interested.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

To me it would make perfect sense.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Understood and appreciated, Ibrahiim. However, every single moderator and/or forum Staff member has expressed a serious lack of interest in expanding this forum as you propose. The owner, Lee Jones, has not commented, but I am confident he would not support your proposal either.

Please do not take this as a personal affront. The very notion that this place would be suitable for serious academic pursuit is flattering to the staff and membership. Howevever, we do not have aspirations beyond maintaining a nice place to share information and discuss our common interests.

I encourage you to run with this concept and start your own academic website and discussion board if you like. If you choose to take on that herculean task, I wish you all the best, and will watch with great interest!

Best regards,
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[David]

^^^ What he said...