Sele from Makassar (Keris Bugis)

kai · 2nd September 2005, 12:07 AM

BTW, I assume that this keris is Makassarese? If so, is it politically correct to pigeon-hole it as a "Keris Bugis" or is there a more suitable catch-all term?

Alam Shah · 2nd September 2005, 03:08 AM

Hi Kai,

The blade looks like a javanese patrem with it's thin and longer ganja.
It looks as though it was reshaped from a longer piece. The pamor lines
does not flow with the luks.
(I have a javanese patrem, of a different form. See here).

The blade and the sandang walikat sheath form looks complementary to each other.

In your assembly, the hilt and pendokok (hilt cup) looks a little 'out of place'.
Without the longer 'neck' of the pendokok, the hilt would probably would not
fit the entire length of the peksi. The hulu and pendokok is of the Sulawesi (Celebes) form.

I have a short Sulawesi keris with a mini tebeng-styled sheath. See it here.
(The sheath is complementary to the form. But don't follow my pendokok

. Wrong styled. Mine is a peninsular styled pendokok.)

Nevertheless, should you decide to change the sheath, I would recommend a tebeng-styled sheath or another Sulawesi form (see here).

Feel free to disagree.

Henk · 2nd September 2005, 03:59 PM

Kai, Alam Shah is right. The blade is a javanese one. Javanese blades were highly apreciated so it is no surprise that you see javanese blades mounted as a buginese keris.

But i don't think yours is a bugis. The walikat sandang sheath is more javanese and the uikiran is too large for this blade. I guess that the previous owner replaced it. Maybe you can find a small ukiran for a patrem to complete its javanese origin.

Alam Shah · 3rd September 2005, 02:40 AM

A Jogya styled sheath, hulu and mendak would look nice and elegant for your piece. Just a suggestion. (See my example).

RobT · 4th September 2005, 04:52 AM

Hello Kai,
Could you describe the process of electrolytic rust removal or direct me to a source of information for same? I would really like to try out the method.
Sincerely,
RobT

kai · 4th September 2005, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Could you describe the process of electrolytic rust removal or direct me to a source of information for same?

Hi Rob,

I just started a new thread on this method so that others can join in...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=14089

Regards,
Kai

kai · 5th September 2005, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

But i don't think yours is a bugis. The walikat sandang sheath is more javanese and the uikiran is too large for this blade.

Hi Henk,

What kind of wood would this be if of Javanese origin? (It's carved pretty crudely and the wood is very light.) AFAIK, there are no pines on Jawa but they are native to Sulawesi (mountain peaks)...

As given above, the blade is really stubby. The Sulawesi hilt is of average size, give or take. The whole assembly is feels more like a Moro gunong than the more graceful keris patrem I've seen pics of!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 5th September 2005, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The blade looks like a javanese patrem with it's thin and longer ganja. It looks as though it was reshaped from a longer piece. The pamor lines does not flow with the luks.

Thanks, mas Alam! I've been wondering about the pamor flow, too. However, if the shortening would have been done in Jawa, why were the original shape modified, especially since this can't be hidden with a pamor miring blade?

Quote:

In your assembly, the hilt and pendokok (hilt cup) looks a little 'out of place'. Without the longer 'neck' of the pendokok, the hilt would probably would not fit the entire length of the peksi.

Yup, the peksi is 53 mm (2.1") long. The blade is only 175 mm (6.9")!

Quote:

Feel free to disagree.

No need to, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 6th September 2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, mas Alam! I've been wondering about the pamor flow, too. However, if the shortening would have been done in Jawa, why were the original shape modified, especially since this can't be hidden with a pamor miring blade?

Yup, the peksi is 53 mm (2.1") long. The blade is only 175 mm (6.9")!

Regards,
Kai

This is just a guess. For a keris to be used for a boy or woman, it would be cheaper to do the modification from an existing blade than commissioning a new piece (a patrem). For the sheath, it might be a "make-do" piece to accommodate the new form (after mod.).

kai · 6th September 2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

This is just a guess. For a keris to be used for a boy or woman, it would be cheaper to do the modification from an existing blade than commissioning a new piece (a patrem).

This would be a severe breach of rule #1: Never cheap out on your wife...

What I meant though: Why would one want to narrow down the original luks and thereby messing with the pamor miring instead of just shortening the blade?

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 6th September 2005, 04:23 AM

I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

kai · 6th September 2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

Yup, that's why I compared it to a Moro gunong.

However, I still don't see why it would be preferable (from a functional POV) to "smooth out" the originally broader luk since the total width of the blade doesn't seem limiting to me. If a more slender blade is the main goal, just grind off both edges equally (following the pamor) and, thus, preserve the original shape/proportions. So, is the actually seen change of blade proportions/design some sort of traditional dapur "requirement" for keris Jawa? Of course, it's much easier to rework a pamor mlumah (tiban) blade but I have problems to imagine that a bladesmith would compromise a nice pamor miring for anything but a very good reason... Any ideas?

Regards,
Kai

4th September 2005, 04:52 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 536	electrolytic rust removal Hello Kai, Could you describe the process of electrolytic rust removal or direct me to a source of information for same? I would really like to try out the method. Sincerely, RobT

6th September 2005, 04:23 AM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	stealth use... I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

2nd September 2005, 12:07 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Faux pas? BTW, I assume that this keris is Makassarese? If so, is it politically correct to pigeon-hole it as a "Keris Bugis" or is there a more suitable catch-all term?

2nd September 2005, 03:08 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Kai, The blade looks like a javanese patrem with it's thin and longer ganja. It looks as though it was reshaped from a longer piece. The pamor lines does not flow with the luks. (I have a javanese patrem, of a different form. See here). The blade and the sandang walikat sheath form looks complementary to each other. In your assembly, the hilt and pendokok (hilt cup) looks a little 'out of place'. Without the longer 'neck' of the pendokok, the hilt would probably would not fit the entire length of the peksi. The hulu and pendokok is of the Sulawesi (Celebes) form. I have a short Sulawesi keris with a mini tebeng-styled sheath. See it here. (The sheath is complementary to the form. But don't follow my pendokok . Wrong styled. Mine is a peninsular styled pendokok.) Nevertheless, should you decide to change the sheath, I would recommend a tebeng-styled sheath or another Sulawesi form (see here). Feel free to disagree.

2nd September 2005, 03:59 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Kai, Alam Shah is right. The blade is a javanese one. Javanese blades were highly apreciated so it is no surprise that you see javanese blades mounted as a buginese keris. But i don't think yours is a bugis. The walikat sandang sheath is more javanese and the uikiran is too large for this blade. I guess that the previous owner replaced it. Maybe you can find a small ukiran for a patrem to complete its javanese origin.

3rd September 2005, 02:40 AM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	A Jogya styled sheath, hulu and mendak would look nice and elegant for your piece. Just a suggestion. (See my example).