Krazy Kris Krosses

Spunjer · 1st May 2012, 12:09 PM

sorry, been working some crazy hours this past week...

Quote:

Frome the pics, I don't get the impression that this is a reworked European blade: The pamor at (or in front of) the sampir area looks undisturbed, especially visible on the left hand side; also the form and fullering of the blade does look like nice Moro work to me. Since some of the talismanic marks are situated inside the shallow central fuller while those at the base are engraved into the convex blade surface, I think that the chances that this is an European blade with original European marks are slim to none.

great point, kai! by not getting a peep from our european experts, i take it this pattern is unfamiliar to them.. i've requested to have this thread transferred to the ethno forum.

Quote:

The other kris you referred to still looks like a (mid 19th c. or a bit earlier?) Sulu blade to me. I'm afraid that I don't grasp very close similarities or is it mainly a feel/balance thing? Could you post a pic of both pieces side by side, please?

i will take some pics per requested either tonite or tomorrow, and will give my explanation, but why do you think the blade is sulu?

David R · 1st May 2012, 05:09 PM

Crosses turn up elsewhere in the Islamic world, the Tuareg and the "cross of Agades" for instance. In non/pre Christian iconography it often symbolises the sun's rays.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2012, 07:09 PM

Hi Spunjer,
Im with everyone else in agreeing this is an extremely nice Moro keris, and while I know little on these weapons I do find the crosses intriguing. Without entering the area of the somewhat daunting classification and nomenclature of Moro keris, I am wondering why this blade would be considered to be possibly European.
From what I understand, the guard (gangya?) on these blades was inclined to be made separately on early examples, so the blade itself having this distinct flared blade base would be understandable if the guard and stirrup were added on to a European blade. It would also be understandable to have Spanish weaponry available, and the Spanish type helmets and mail were used by the Moro.
However I dont know of any European blades with this type of parallel fuller configurations offhand. The crosses do of course lean toward those often seen on European blades, but in those cases typically either enclose inscriptions or names, and are not used in what appears to be a linear numeric sequence. Native use of these kinds of marks does seem to follow that characteristic. I would point out that crosses, along with other well known marks such as the running wolf, sickle marks, anchors etc. are not makers marks, though in some cases certain makers may have favored the use of certain ones as well as number combinations and inscriptions.

From what I understand of Moro blades (again, very liittle

it does seem they often carried talismanic inscriptions, I think there was a article in "Arts of Asia" some years ago by Robert Cato. As has been well noted, the cross as a symbol far predates Christianity, and has been known to represent cosmological symbolism as well as the four cardinal directions. These applications are found in many contexts outside religious themes, and are known to occur in those of various religions outside the more typically observed Christian uses.

I would consider these crosses to be Moro native applied and most likely adopted in talismanic parlance with numerically oriented basis, with the other symbolics interspersed. The heraldic style cross is most likely an artistic interpretation of those seen on European blades.

VVV · 1st May 2012, 09:09 PM

Nice catch Ron,
I waited too long and then it was gone...

The cross is, as Jim mentioned, often used as a universal geometric pattern to symbolize the four cardinal directions.
On talismans, in several other Muslim regions, it disperses evil forces away from the carrier, like a metaphysical shield.

Michael

Spunjer · 2nd May 2012, 02:11 AM

thank you david and thank you, jim, for a thorough explanation! the european blade angle was due to the talismanic symbols. my train of thought were as follows: heraldic cross on the kris, hence european in origin since it was something i don't ever recall seeing on any moro weapon before.. i reckon it was easy to jump to that conclusion due to the spaniards' presence. i have to bring it up to the more knowledgeable european weapons collector if it was indeed what i thought it was. well, that clarifies that...

michael, have you ever seen these types of symbols in any of your moro swords? even those weird marks somewhat in the middle of the cross sequences doesn't seem to fit on any talismanic markings in the moro realm..

VVV · 2nd May 2012, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

[...] michael, have you ever seen these types of symbols in any of your moro swords? even those weird marks somewhat in the middle of the cross sequences doesn't seem to fit on any talismanic markings in the moro realm..

No, never. But I have this kris with five stars in a cross along its blade. It's also a (related?) motif I haven't seen on any other blade. Because of traveling, trade and pilgrimage odd motifs show up now and then, especially if they have a magic charge.

Michael

migueldiaz · 2nd May 2012, 04:20 PM

the bagobo shield (upper right hand corner in the pic) sometimes have cross-like symbols, too ...

2nd May 2012, 04:20 PM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	the bagobo shield (upper right hand corner in the pic) sometimes have cross-like symbols, too ... Attached Images

1st May 2012, 05:09 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	Crosses turn up elsewhere in the Islamic world, the Tuareg and the "cross of Agades" for instance. In non/pre Christian iconography it often symbolises the sun's rays.

1st May 2012, 07:09 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Spunjer, Im with everyone else in agreeing this is an extremely nice Moro keris, and while I know little on these weapons I do find the crosses intriguing. Without entering the area of the somewhat daunting classification and nomenclature of Moro keris, I am wondering why this blade would be considered to be possibly European. From what I understand, the guard (gangya?) on these blades was inclined to be made separately on early examples, so the blade itself having this distinct flared blade base would be understandable if the guard and stirrup were added on to a European blade. It would also be understandable to have Spanish weaponry available, and the Spanish type helmets and mail were used by the Moro. However I dont know of any European blades with this type of parallel fuller configurations offhand. The crosses do of course lean toward those often seen on European blades, but in those cases typically either enclose inscriptions or names, and are not used in what appears to be a linear numeric sequence. Native use of these kinds of marks does seem to follow that characteristic. I would point out that crosses, along with other well known marks such as the running wolf, sickle marks, anchors etc. are not makers marks, though in some cases certain makers may have favored the use of certain ones as well as number combinations and inscriptions. From what I understand of Moro blades (again, very liittle it does seem they often carried talismanic inscriptions, I think there was a article in "Arts of Asia" some years ago by Robert Cato. As has been well noted, the cross as a symbol far predates Christianity, and has been known to represent cosmological symbolism as well as the four cardinal directions. These applications are found in many contexts outside religious themes, and are known to occur in those of various religions outside the more typically observed Christian uses. I would consider these crosses to be Moro native applied and most likely adopted in talismanic parlance with numerically oriented basis, with the other symbolics interspersed. The heraldic style cross is most likely an artistic interpretation of those seen on European blades.

1st May 2012, 09:09 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice catch Ron, I waited too long and then it was gone... The cross is, as Jim mentioned, often used as a universal geometric pattern to symbolize the four cardinal directions. On talismans, in several other Muslim regions, it disperses evil forces away from the carrier, like a metaphysical shield. Michael

2nd May 2012, 02:11 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thank you david and thank you, jim, for a thorough explanation! the european blade angle was due to the talismanic symbols. my train of thought were as follows: heraldic cross on the kris, hence european in origin since it was something i don't ever recall seeing on any moro weapon before.. i reckon it was easy to jump to that conclusion due to the spaniards' presence. i have to bring it up to the more knowledgeable european weapons collector if it was indeed what i thought it was. well, that clarifies that... michael, have you ever seen these types of symbols in any of your moro swords? even those weird marks somewhat in the middle of the cross sequences doesn't seem to fit on any talismanic markings in the moro realm..