Keris Sheikh Ahmad Qomi

[David]

Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear enough and i am afraid you have misinterpreted my question. I don't want to know where you sourced the image from. I want to know what the source of the image itself is. In other words, when was the image created and where. In the smaller overall image it appears to be a door of some sort (it looks like there is a ring as a for handle half way down on the left) or the lid of a box.
I want to know when and where this image was created because i think it is fair to assume that the closer to the actual time of of this Sheik's life it was made, the more likely it is to be an accurate depiction of the form of his actual keris.

[PenangsangII]

with this article and painted image, I cannot help but wondering whether Siam (Ayothya) was actually a muslim state...?

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

with this article and painted image, I cannot help but wondering whether Siam (Ayothya) was actually a muslim state...?

Yes, and this was one of its main mosques.

[PenangsangII]

Gustav, it looks like a Buddhist temple to me...

I am talking about Siam circa 1700 AD before it was sacked by Sukkhotai

[rasdan]

Smart answer Gustav. Cool research.

Penansang, I am not a specialist in this, but probably this would help.

http://journalarticle.ukm.my/514/1/1.pdf

Sheikh Ahmad (maybe the one discussed here) is mentioned in page 208 of this article.

I have no idea when the drawing in the first post of this thread were drawn.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by rasdan

Smart answer Gustav. Cool research.

This is not cause of a research, Rasdan, this is an elementar fact.

The temple was constructed around 1630, so about the end of life of Sheikh Ahmad Qomi.

I will not comment this Ayutthaya-Sukhothai thing.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by Gustav

This is not cause of a research, Rasdan, this is an elementar fact.

The temple was constructed around 1630, so about the end of life of Sheikh Ahmad Qomi.

I will not comment this Ayutthaya-Sukhothai thing.

The paper I forwarded also didn't suggest that it's a Muslim state. Nor did I ever think so. The part about not commenting further.. Right on mate!!

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear enough and i am afraid you have misinterpreted my question. I don't want to know where you sourced the image from. I want to know what the source of the image itself is. In other words, when was the image created and where. In the smaller overall image it appears to be a door of some sort (it looks like there is a ring as a for handle half way down on the left) or the lid of a box.
I want to know when and where this image was created because i think it is fair to assume that the closer to the actual time of of this Sheik's life it was made, the more likely it is to be an accurate depiction of the form of his actual keris.

Yes, I agree with David...the painting is on a door...a double door....to a Buddhist temple. I'm curious to know which Wat. I think the figure is painted to show the diversity of individuals/ groups in Ayutthaya/ early Rattanakosin period. I doubt you will be able to find out when that particular mural is done...but you might. I'm guessing this is a more recent mural...ie 1900's+


This could not be from a door of a Thai Mosque. You will not find human images depicted in the Mosque.

[Nathaniel]

And I think you guys might have your names mixed up...you mean Ayutthaya Kingdom before they where sacked by the Burmese twice in the 1700s. Sukhothai Kingdom never sacked Ayutthaya. Sukhothai however was on the decline and incorporated into Ayutthaya at tributary state in the late 1300's.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear enough and i am afraid you have misinterpreted my question. I don't want to know where you sourced the image from. I want to know what the source of the image itself is. In other words, when was the image created and where. In the smaller overall image it appears to be a door of some sort (it looks like there is a ring as a for handle half way down on the left) or the lid of a box.
I want to know when and where this image was created because i think it is fair to assume that the closer to the actual time of of this Sheik's life it was made, the more likely it is to be an accurate depiction of the form of his actual keris.

I was just told this door painting comes from Wat Somanat Wihan in Bangkok.

http://www.watsomanas.com/eng/history.php

"Wat Somanas Vihara is a second grade royel monastery. It was established by King Rama IV (who was a monk for 27 years before he ascended the Throne) in 1853 in memory of Her Royel Highness Princess Somanasvatanavadee, His first beloved Queen (Her Royal Highness Princess Somanasvatanavadee was born on Sunday, December 12, 1834, married in 1851 and passed away in 1852)."

There is a book on this temple's murals:

Temple Mural Paintings at Wat Somanat Wihan
Hard Cover
Large Format
Muang Boran
1995 Bangkok
116 pages
ISBN 9748235645

[David]

Nice research Nathaniel, thank you...

[Nathaniel]

Okay. Hmm latest update. I knew I had seen this picture before so even after I was told by a friend it was at this particular temple, I search through some of my Thai art books and found the same picture. The label says only that it is a door of a cabinet (which admittedly makes much better sense vs a Buddhist temple door), Ayutthaya period and that it is located in the National Museum in Bangkok.

[Nathaniel]

Okay, a little ridiculous I know but I continued to think about this one more...how if this painting is from a cabinet, I could picture the exact type of Thai cabinet it belongs too...often called a manuscript cabinet. I did a Google image search for "Thai Gold Lacquer Cabinet" to see what I could find so I could show the forum members some examples of what I'm talking about and came up with this

[Nathaniel]

and it turns out I was quite lucky too to find the same cabinet with the figure with the Keris...it is actually quite a famous cabinet...not only for the gentleman with the Keris, but also the European figure on the left panel door.

[Nathaniel]

And this cabinet was also featured in the "The Kingdom of Siam,” Asian Art Museum, San Francisco, February through May, 2005.

The article goes on to show that there has been quite a bit of academic thought into who the two figures on the cabinet might be/ represent!!!!


http://www-laep.ced.berkeley.edu/~xi.../France-R.html

This is what is said about the cabinet on this webpage, just in case it's deleted in the future:

60. Cabinet decorated with a European and an Indian or Persian, perhaps the French king Louis XIV and the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb, approx. 1650–1750; lacquered and gilded wood

This cabinet has conventionally been thought to represent King Louis XIV (reigned 1643–1715) and Emperor Aurangzeb (reigned 1658–1707), and to date from the reign of King Narai (1656–1688), who exchanged ambassadors with both. Examples of such portraits, or engravings of them, are known to have been in Siam in the 1680s. It has recently been suggested that the figure on the right could be Shah Sulaiman of Persia (reigned 1666–1694) rather than Aurangzeb. For a detailed discussion of the possible identifications of the two main figures, are below.

National Museum, Bangkok, 115 (T. 101)

[HangPC2]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

and it turns out I was quite lucky too to find the same cabinet with the figure with the Keris...it is actually quite a famous cabinet...not only for the gentleman with the Keris, but also the European figure on the left panel door.

Thanks Nathaniel


European figure ?


France, Dutch or Portuguese ?

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Can we clarify further whether the figure was supposed to be an Indian or a Persian? Merchants and envoys of both nationalities were present in Siam to be looked at, and King Narai is said to have dressed in Persian style, so there must have been aspects of clothing that for Thais signaled “Indian” (or “Mughal”) as opposed to “Persian.”

Example





Sultan Sulaiman (Phra Chao Mueng Songkhla)


Sultan of Singgora (Songkhla)


Ethnic : Malay


Costume : Ottoman clothing









Malay Turban ?


A 1602 Dutch engraving ( entitled “ Triumphal procession near the city of Patani ” ) of the entourage of Patani’s famed Raja Hijau (1584-1616). The Queen rides a decoratively harnessed elephant, accompanied by her maids-in-waiting (and plausibly her sisters, the future Rajas Biru and Ungu) on other elephants. Noblemen accompany the entourage, which has its full complement of Malay palace guards and soldiers in Portuguese-supplied helmets and battle gear. According to the original German and Latin text, two elephants in the vanguard carry armaments in honour of the late King and Raja Hijau’s father, Sultan Bahadur Shah.

Image: Isaac Commelin, “ Hoe de Koninginne van Patana haer gaet vermaecken ” in Begin ende Voortgangh van de Vereenighde Nederlandsche Geoctroyeerde Oost-Indische Compagnie (Beginning and Ending of the Dutch East India Company), 1646, extracted from the Atlas of Mutual Heritage, Nationaal Archief, Nederland (National Archive of the Netherlands).