Jamdhar katari - a theory

Emanuel · 13th April 2012, 08:32 AM

While searching for synonyms for "knife" I also found "chhuri" origin of the word "choora". "ch-huri" and "kutarni" both have feminine ending, while "choora" would have been masculine. This brings back to mind the debate over chooras and karuds. Since both words literally mean "knife" it wouldn't matter what we call them to their original owners/makers.

Emanuel

Stan S. · 13th April 2012, 03:57 PM

So is the similarity between hilts purely coincidental?

chregu · 13th April 2012, 08:37 PM

hello together
I find your thinking well!
in my records, "Hermann Historica," it says in Jamdhar Katari: the weapon of tribal Kafirs (Arabic for infidel).
Indo-folk on the southern slopes of the Hindu Kush, to the east of Kashmir .............
is that correct?
If so, you would have to find out what language does this folk, and then compare what knife in this language means. Perhaps it simply means knife?
here are my piece
greeting Chregu

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2012, 09:23 PM

Very astutely observed Stan, and admire your well thought out approach to learning and understanding more on these weapons. Personally I had not thought of or noticed the parallel bar comparison in the jamadhar katara vs. the katar, one vertically situated, the other transverse.

This is an excellent theory, and by no means is the history of these weapons common knowledge, actually among the more esoteric of the ethnographic fields. It is of course hard to say how much influential bearing these two dagger types have upon each other, and the terminology conundrum is much as always the case with these classifications, extremely complicated.

Emanuel has well noted that these jamadhar katara were discussed on a number of occasions through the years, and it while they appear named as such in Stone, it was indeed Pant who set forth clarification on them. He notes that it was Egerton (1884) who transposed the katar term to the jamadhar, and the error was perpetuated by writers who followed. The compound name was probably an attempt to resolve the matter. It is important to note that this particular type of dagger with broad, parallel pommel guard and crossguard is as Chregu has specified, known to have been used by the Kafirs of the region formerly Kafiristan (from Kipling, "Man Who Would Be King").

These Kafir tribes were animists who were largely dispersed when their homeland was invaded by Afghan Abdur Rahman Khan, and he changed the lands name to Nuristan. Those who dispersed went into regions in the Hindu Kush and Chitral and are known primarily as Kalash, their ancestral tribal group.

There are few references to this tribal group, but there are some which depict thier animist symbols and devices. Im unclear on the language they speak, certainly dialects present in Chitral regions and likely Urdu, Hindi and possibly Lohar.

Again, Stan very well placed thoughts, and the kind of thinking that the serious study of ethnographic arms desperately needs more of !!!
Thank you so much for sharing your observations.

All the very best,
JIm

DaveA · 14th April 2012, 04:03 AM

Very interesting thread! For comparison, here is the Jamdhar Katari in my collection.

Rick · 14th April 2012, 04:14 AM

I'm not seeing the connection between the two .

Stan S. · 14th April 2012, 05:08 AM

Maybe there is no connection after all... But consider this:

1. Older jamdhar katari were often cast in one piece just like a northern version of a katar

2. "Newer" versions, lets say from the 19th century onward, seem to be composite pieces where a tang-less blade is secured to the hilt with rivets - much like a katar with a sword tip blade

3. Thin metal grip of jamdhar katari features structures similar to the ones found on the grips of many katars. Their main function in all cases is without a doubt to prevent the hand from slipping from a thin grip, but it's peculiar that it is found on both jamdhars and katars

4. A long slender pommel and crossguard on jamdhar katari is designed to lock the wrist. The same feature is almost always present in katars in the form of the side bars

5. Based on teh above, if you can visualize taking a katar and reversing the blade where it is positioned as it would be on a typical dagger, you get jamdhar katari. This also seems to work in reverse. The shape of the blade is somewhat different (except on the old versions of jamdhar katari that feature a straight triangular blade) but otherwise they are similar

Once again, this is just a thought. There may be no connection what so ever, or maybe parituclar styles of these two knives are dictated by simple aesthetics of the people that used them. And being that these people intermingled in the same region, it could be that both forms developed independantly but following some common principle unknown to us.

13th April 2012, 08:37 PM	#3
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together I find your thinking well! in my records, "Hermann Historica," it says in Jamdhar Katari: the weapon of tribal Kafirs (Arabic for infidel). Indo-folk on the southern slopes of the Hindu Kush, to the east of Kashmir ............. is that correct? If so, you would have to find out what language does this folk, and then compare what knife in this language means. Perhaps it simply means knife? here are my piece greeting Chregu Attached Images

14th April 2012, 04:03 AM	#5
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	My Jamdhar Katari Very interesting thread! For comparison, here is the Jamdhar Katari in my collection. Attached Images

13th April 2012, 08:32 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	While searching for synonyms for "knife" I also found "chhuri" origin of the word "choora". "ch-huri" and "kutarni" both have feminine ending, while "choora" would have been masculine. This brings back to mind the debate over chooras and karuds. Since both words literally mean "knife" it wouldn't matter what we call them to their original owners/makers. Emanuel

13th April 2012, 03:57 PM	#2
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	So is the similarity between hilts purely coincidental?

13th April 2012, 09:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very astutely observed Stan, and admire your well thought out approach to learning and understanding more on these weapons. Personally I had not thought of or noticed the parallel bar comparison in the jamadhar katara vs. the katar, one vertically situated, the other transverse. This is an excellent theory, and by no means is the history of these weapons common knowledge, actually among the more esoteric of the ethnographic fields. It is of course hard to say how much influential bearing these two dagger types have upon each other, and the terminology conundrum is much as always the case with these classifications, extremely complicated. Emanuel has well noted that these jamadhar katara were discussed on a number of occasions through the years, and it while they appear named as such in Stone, it was indeed Pant who set forth clarification on them. He notes that it was Egerton (1884) who transposed the katar term to the jamadhar, and the error was perpetuated by writers who followed. The compound name was probably an attempt to resolve the matter. It is important to note that this particular type of dagger with broad, parallel pommel guard and crossguard is as Chregu has specified, known to have been used by the Kafirs of the region formerly Kafiristan (from Kipling, "Man Who Would Be King"). These Kafir tribes were animists who were largely dispersed when their homeland was invaded by Afghan Abdur Rahman Khan, and he changed the lands name to Nuristan. Those who dispersed went into regions in the Hindu Kush and Chitral and are known primarily as Kalash, their ancestral tribal group. There are few references to this tribal group, but there are some which depict thier animist symbols and devices. Im unclear on the language they speak, certainly dialects present in Chitral regions and likely Urdu, Hindi and possibly Lohar. Again, Stan very well placed thoughts, and the kind of thinking that the serious study of ethnographic arms desperately needs more of !!! Thank you so much for sharing your observations. All the very best, JIm

14th April 2012, 04:14 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I'm not seeing the connection between the two .

14th April 2012, 05:08 AM	#7
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Maybe there is no connection after all... But consider this: 1. Older jamdhar katari were often cast in one piece just like a northern version of a katar 2. "Newer" versions, lets say from the 19th century onward, seem to be composite pieces where a tang-less blade is secured to the hilt with rivets - much like a katar with a sword tip blade 3. Thin metal grip of jamdhar katari features structures similar to the ones found on the grips of many katars. Their main function in all cases is without a doubt to prevent the hand from slipping from a thin grip, but it's peculiar that it is found on both jamdhars and katars 4. A long slender pommel and crossguard on jamdhar katari is designed to lock the wrist. The same feature is almost always present in katars in the form of the side bars 5. Based on teh above, if you can visualize taking a katar and reversing the blade where it is positioned as it would be on a typical dagger, you get jamdhar katari. This also seems to work in reverse. The shape of the blade is somewhat different (except on the old versions of jamdhar katari that feature a straight triangular blade) but otherwise they are similar Once again, this is just a thought. There may be no connection what so ever, or maybe parituclar styles of these two knives are dictated by simple aesthetics of the people that used them. And being that these people intermingled in the same region, it could be that both forms developed independantly but following some common principle unknown to us.