An experiment

erlikhan · 26th August 2005, 09:17 PM

Rivkin, your logic -may be- correct if you mean a full new production form zero to 100 percent, as no master can have knowledge and skill in all fields of art which act role to form a complete old weapon. It needs a real big investment devotion and energy, to train and keep together enough number of different artists in a single workshop. But.. who cares about a undecorated simple blade and scabbard so much? Such a lets say shamshir is hardly worth of 500 dollars, but if it has just a little gold koftgari on blade and scabbard mountings with worked silver or iron with koftgari, it immidiately goes over 1500-2000 dollars. So some countries focus especially on koftgari and silverwork. Iran leads by far. I know Iranian dealers who have offered me to win some decorated Turkish pistols from an auction in Turkey, then they would take them to Iran, and produce exactly the same in numbers like 20 per piece. I know they can do it. Unlike India they can work very succesfully old looking koftgari too. I know dealers,who have been sending their edged weapons and pistols there,and they come back with very good,deep and old looking koftgari decorations on blades, barrels,locks elevating price of items hundreds or thousands of dollars. One must worry about not a totally fake Islamic arm but decorative tricks which are very desicive about the demand and price. Even the most respectful auctions dont mean a 100 percent authenticity guarantee.

Ian · 27th August 2005, 05:25 AM

Rivkin and Erlikhan:

You are both correct of course. On the matter of "doctoring" genuine weapons to make them more "attractive," I offer one tale.

Several years ago I purchased on eBay a Turkish sword (sidearm) from WWI. I believe it was a German pattern briquet, c. 1850s. Lightly engraved on the blade was an inscription that placed the sword at Gallipoli, a famous battle site where Australian, New Zealand and British soldiers were landed at the wrong place on the coast and were cut to pieces by Turkish defenses. It was a monumental defeat for the invading forces, but Turkish losses were also substantial. This was the birth of the ANZAC legend, and the event is celebrated annually by a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand.

However, the English dealer who sold me this sword said the inscription was almost certainly a fake, and in the style of a well known English forger. The script used for the inscription was unusual and apparently characteristic of this particular felon (who had not been caught by the authorities last I heard).

I purchased the sword for what it was, a WWI period Turkish sidearm, and paid a small amount commensurate with that fact. When I was in Australia, a dealer spotted the sword with its inscription and begged me to sell it to him. I told him the inscription was almost certainly phoney. He still wanted the sword, and offered me twice what I paid for it (knowing that the inscription was phoney).

Next thing I see it in an auction catalog with a reserve of five times what he paid me and with a claim that it was an historically important relic from WWI. Thank God there was no made up "provenance" to go with the item. It was purchased by a very experienced Australian collector who should have known better.

This whole story taught me a lot about fakes and the market place. Basically there is a conspiracy between the forger and the person who buys a fake. The forger just wants to make a profit. The buyer deparately wants to own this item of "value," and if it is "rare" and a "great deal" so much the better. They have a common interest. But it is the middle man/dealer who makes the real killing!

Ian.

John · 27th August 2005, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

...The buyer deparately wants to own this item of "value," and if it is "rare" and a "great deal" so much the better. They have a common interest. But it is the middle man/dealer who makes the real killing!

Ian.

...so true!

erlikhan · 27th August 2005, 07:52 AM

Yes. All of us focus on the part which adds the item rarity compared to other samples of its type. And fakers focus on those parts too. Perhaps a collectioner must behave like this: if a collectioner's experience is not too much and can't exactly determine the offered item is fully authentic or not, he must just decide if the item would look to other people as much convincing as it looks to himself or not. He must depend on his experience just that much. If the item doesnt look really suspicious to me, it means it would not look suspicious to most of other average collectors who are in vast numbers too. So I would stay on the safe side, would be able to resell it without loss or with some or more profit when I want to. That is the main point of Ian's story too I think. The dealer considered that of course not in good faith-most dangerous character for collectioners-, but he knew it was authentic enough to convince most collectors, and the collector which bought it thought like I wrote above. He can still resell it to someone, and I am afraid there are so many pieces like that circulating in market.

The real problem starts if a real expert checks your new item and explains it is a fake. So you must hide the fact and lie to others, to be able to get rid of the item which you will immidiately start to hate and you will not stand to see it anymore. While offering it, what will you tell your friends or any potential customers if they ask you about its authenticity? Will you be honest or not?

So,simply never show your already owned items to real experts for your brain and soul comfort. Do it in advance if you can, or hide forever.

26th August 2005, 09:17 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, your logic -may be- correct if you mean a full new production form zero to 100 percent, as no master can have knowledge and skill in all fields of art which act role to form a complete old weapon. It needs a real big investment devotion and energy, to train and keep together enough number of different artists in a single workshop. But.. who cares about a undecorated simple blade and scabbard so much? Such a lets say shamshir is hardly worth of 500 dollars, but if it has just a little gold koftgari on blade and scabbard mountings with worked silver or iron with koftgari, it immidiately goes over 1500-2000 dollars. So some countries focus especially on koftgari and silverwork. Iran leads by far. I know Iranian dealers who have offered me to win some decorated Turkish pistols from an auction in Turkey, then they would take them to Iran, and produce exactly the same in numbers like 20 per piece. I know they can do it. Unlike India they can work very succesfully old looking koftgari too. I know dealers,who have been sending their edged weapons and pistols there,and they come back with very good,deep and old looking koftgari decorations on blades, barrels,locks elevating price of items hundreds or thousands of dollars. One must worry about not a totally fake Islamic arm but decorative tricks which are very desicive about the demand and price. Even the most respectful auctions dont mean a 100 percent authenticity guarantee. Last edited by erlikhan; 27th August 2005 at 07:33 AM.

27th August 2005, 05:25 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Forgeries and fakes Rivkin and Erlikhan: You are both correct of course. On the matter of "doctoring" genuine weapons to make them more "attractive," I offer one tale. Several years ago I purchased on eBay a Turkish sword (sidearm) from WWI. I believe it was a German pattern briquet, c. 1850s. Lightly engraved on the blade was an inscription that placed the sword at Gallipoli, a famous battle site where Australian, New Zealand and British soldiers were landed at the wrong place on the coast and were cut to pieces by Turkish defenses. It was a monumental defeat for the invading forces, but Turkish losses were also substantial. This was the birth of the ANZAC legend, and the event is celebrated annually by a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand. However, the English dealer who sold me this sword said the inscription was almost certainly a fake, and in the style of a well known English forger. The script used for the inscription was unusual and apparently characteristic of this particular felon (who had not been caught by the authorities last I heard). I purchased the sword for what it was, a WWI period Turkish sidearm, and paid a small amount commensurate with that fact. When I was in Australia, a dealer spotted the sword with its inscription and begged me to sell it to him. I told him the inscription was almost certainly phoney. He still wanted the sword, and offered me twice what I paid for it (knowing that the inscription was phoney). Next thing I see it in an auction catalog with a reserve of five times what he paid me and with a claim that it was an historically important relic from WWI. Thank God there was no made up "provenance" to go with the item. It was purchased by a very experienced Australian collector who should have known better. This whole story taught me a lot about fakes and the market place. Basically there is a conspiracy between the forger and the person who buys a fake. The forger just wants to make a profit. The buyer deparately wants to own this item of "value," and if it is "rare" and a "great deal" so much the better. They have a common interest. But it is the middle man/dealer who makes the real killing! Ian.

27th August 2005, 07:52 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes. All of us focus on the part which adds the item rarity compared to other samples of its type. And fakers focus on those parts too. Perhaps a collectioner must behave like this: if a collectioner's experience is not too much and can't exactly determine the offered item is fully authentic or not, he must just decide if the item would look to other people as much convincing as it looks to himself or not. He must depend on his experience just that much. If the item doesnt look really suspicious to me, it means it would not look suspicious to most of other average collectors who are in vast numbers too. So I would stay on the safe side, would be able to resell it without loss or with some or more profit when I want to. That is the main point of Ian's story too I think. The dealer considered that of course not in good faith-most dangerous character for collectioners-, but he knew it was authentic enough to convince most collectors, and the collector which bought it thought like I wrote above. He can still resell it to someone, and I am afraid there are so many pieces like that circulating in market. The real problem starts if a real expert checks your new item and explains it is a fake. So you must hide the fact and lie to others, to be able to get rid of the item which you will immidiately start to hate and you will not stand to see it anymore. While offering it, what will you tell your friends or any potential customers if they ask you about its authenticity? Will you be honest or not? So,simply never show your already owned items to real experts for your brain and soul comfort. Do it in advance if you can, or hide forever. Last edited by erlikhan; 27th August 2005 at 08:22 AM.