Wootz Shamshir for Comments

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

Interesting. I think its more rational to think the false edge is original because it would make no sense for the smith to heat treat the dull part of the blade. And it just happens that the heat treatment ends where the false edge ends.

Any idea where such a hilt might be used? Am thinking Syria but certain features are not there..

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 02:58 PM

Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern.
The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 06:34 PM

Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-)

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 07:28 PM

Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example?

As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2012, 06:46 PM

Hi Lofty,
This is indeed a great blade, and as Rick has wisely noted, the blade is the true treasure. Hilting and refurbishing is part of the blade's being through its working life, which in many if not most cases covered many generations.
I doubt there was a pommel cap, which of course was most associated with the true Persian shamshirs on which these collective types were based.

If the inscription is indeed Kalb Ali, it is one I have seen on blades which have been diffused via Central Asian trade routes and I have seen one of these blades with that inscription on a Khevsur sabre (from the high regions of Causasus in Georgia). I have also seen these on the typically austere Afghan versions which I believe even have neen seen with wood grips.

The 'false edge' is not as far as I have known been regarded as a true yelman, and these type edge features are I believe a Central Asian affinity. I have seen them on Turkmen and other Central Asian shamshirs. The true Persian shamshir blade is radiused to the point and as far as I have known does not have false edge. The yelman is typically an expanded point at the tip and portion of blade end which is to actually add weight to the blade to add impetus to the force of the draw cut. The term 'kilij' has I think proven to be too nebulus for accurate classification of a sword as it is as far as I know the Turkish word for sword used often collectively in various degree.

I am inclined to think of this wonderfully intriguing example as from Central Asian regions, though it would be difficult to place distinct geographic region as it has clearly traveled these fascinating trade routes. I agree with the earlier period for the blade, and this one likely has lots of stories, the best kind of all...a sabre of mystery and a beautiful example!
Nicely done Lofty! Congratulations!

All the best,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 4th April 2012, 06:00 AM

Hey Jim,

Thanks alot for the precious information!

I dont know much about central Asian arms but imho, the false edge is also existant on Arabian arms. My 2 saifs have false edges but one is with a likely european blade.

As you said, those blades probably have travelled around but I think the answer to the sword's origin (or last user..) lies in the hilt. I have seen this type of hilt before but on blades that were attributed to Iraq and Syria. Not sure how correct is that and my source was a Kuwaiti antique dealer.

Not having the reference books is handicapping my research about this blade, so would appreciate pictured examples of similar hilts.

27th March 2012, 06:34 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-) Attached Images

27th March 2012, 02:58 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern. The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

27th March 2012, 07:28 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example? As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!

3rd April 2012, 06:46 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Lofty, This is indeed a great blade, and as Rick has wisely noted, the blade is the true treasure. Hilting and refurbishing is part of the blade's being through its working life, which in many if not most cases covered many generations. I doubt there was a pommel cap, which of course was most associated with the true Persian shamshirs on which these collective types were based. If the inscription is indeed Kalb Ali, it is one I have seen on blades which have been diffused via Central Asian trade routes and I have seen one of these blades with that inscription on a Khevsur sabre (from the high regions of Causasus in Georgia). I have also seen these on the typically austere Afghan versions which I believe even have neen seen with wood grips. The 'false edge' is not as far as I have known been regarded as a true yelman, and these type edge features are I believe a Central Asian affinity. I have seen them on Turkmen and other Central Asian shamshirs. The true Persian shamshir blade is radiused to the point and as far as I have known does not have false edge. The yelman is typically an expanded point at the tip and portion of blade end which is to actually add weight to the blade to add impetus to the force of the draw cut. The term 'kilij' has I think proven to be too nebulus for accurate classification of a sword as it is as far as I know the Turkish word for sword used often collectively in various degree. I am inclined to think of this wonderfully intriguing example as from Central Asian regions, though it would be difficult to place distinct geographic region as it has clearly traveled these fascinating trade routes. I agree with the earlier period for the blade, and this one likely has lots of stories, the best kind of all...a sabre of mystery and a beautiful example! Nicely done Lofty! Congratulations! All the best, Jim

4th April 2012, 06:00 AM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Jim, Thanks alot for the precious information! I dont know much about central Asian arms but imho, the false edge is also existant on Arabian arms. My 2 saifs have false edges but one is with a likely european blade. As you said, those blades probably have travelled around but I think the answer to the sword's origin (or last user..) lies in the hilt. I have seen this type of hilt before but on blades that were attributed to Iraq and Syria. Not sure how correct is that and my source was a Kuwaiti antique dealer. Not having the reference books is handicapping my research about this blade, so would appreciate pictured examples of similar hilts.