African Or Tlingit Copper Dagger

fearn · 25th August 2005, 05:48 PM

Hi All,

Obviously, I agree with some of the skepticism expressed about the "authenticity" of this piece.

However...

I was reading a book about the Cahuilla Indians of California. Over the last 50 years, they have taken to making rattles to accompany their traditional songs. These rattles used to be made out of old cans. Now they use gourds, heavily painted with acrylic paint and made using modern tools.

Some collectors have criticized these rattles, saying they weren't genuine. Their response was something we should all remember:

We're Cahuilla, and we made these rattles. Therefore, they are genuine Cahuilla rattles. The fact that they don't look like the ones in the museums from a century ago does not mean that they are not genuine. It simply means that collectors are imposing a false standard on our art. (this is a paraphrase).

I'm personally skeptical about the purported age of this piece, but unless it was made by a non-Tlingit, it's a genuine Tlingit knife. Until we know who made it, we might want to be more, ahem, nuanced in our use of genuine vs. reproduction.

F

Jens Nordlunde · 25th August 2005, 09:40 PM

Thank you Fearn,

Jens

Tim Simmons · 25th August 2005, 10:06 PM

Yes a modern manufacture is indeed genuine, we all know what we are hoping for here.?

Tim

fearn · 26th August 2005, 12:30 AM

You got that right Tim! If it were one of the better Tlingit knives it would be in my "if-I-win-the-lottery" category of knives.

Still, it's an interesting philosophical question: for instance, if an anglo makes an accurate Medieval English sword, it's a copy, whereas if an Tlingit makes a copper knife, it's genuine. I'm not saying it all makes sense, but it does make life more interesting than it would be otherwise

F

Jim McDougall · 26th August 2005, 12:40 AM

Very well placed comments Fearn!
While as collectors of antique ethnographic weapons we of course seek evidence of age with patination and such standard indicators, but we do need to remember that in many cultural spheres, the weapons still remain key in ceremonial, ritual and traditional costume. Weapons that are authentically established for such purposes in those cultures remain fascinating examples regardless if relatively recently manufactured.

Best regards,
Jim

tomahawk · 26th August 2005, 02:04 AM

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have sent photos to a museum curator per Mark's request. I received an email from the museum and unfortunately will not hear from them until after Sept. 11. Will update as soon as I hear something.

thanks again
Tomahawk

tomahawk · 27th August 2005, 10:30 PM

One of the appraisers with the Antique Roadshow program, who is familiar with Tlingit artifacts, provided the following info about my copper Tlinget dagger:

The pommel of your dagger appears to be "in the style" of NWC art. It is
possible that it is native manufactured but by an unskilled artisan. The
construction (how the pommel is fixed to the blade) is also atypical.

The appraiser did not comment about the age. I have emailed him again in hopes he will give me his opinion about the age of this piece. Will keep those interested updated. thanks Tomahawk

27th August 2005, 10:30 PM	#7
tomahawk Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 14	Update One of the appraisers with the Antique Roadshow program, who is familiar with Tlingit artifacts, provided the following info about my copper Tlinget dagger: The pommel of your dagger appears to be "in the style" of NWC art. It is possible that it is native manufactured but by an unskilled artisan. The construction (how the pommel is fixed to the blade) is also atypical. The appraiser did not comment about the age. I have emailed him again in hopes he will give me his opinion about the age of this piece. Will keep those interested updated. thanks Tomahawk

25th August 2005, 05:48 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Obviously, I agree with some of the skepticism expressed about the "authenticity" of this piece. However... I was reading a book about the Cahuilla Indians of California. Over the last 50 years, they have taken to making rattles to accompany their traditional songs. These rattles used to be made out of old cans. Now they use gourds, heavily painted with acrylic paint and made using modern tools. Some collectors have criticized these rattles, saying they weren't genuine. Their response was something we should all remember: We're Cahuilla, and we made these rattles. Therefore, they are genuine Cahuilla rattles. The fact that they don't look like the ones in the museums from a century ago does not mean that they are not genuine. It simply means that collectors are imposing a false standard on our art. (this is a paraphrase). I'm personally skeptical about the purported age of this piece, but unless it was made by a non-Tlingit, it's a genuine Tlingit knife. Until we know who made it, we might want to be more, ahem, nuanced in our use of genuine vs. reproduction. F

25th August 2005, 09:40 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Fearn, Jens

25th August 2005, 10:06 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Yes a modern manufacture is indeed genuine, we all know what we are hoping for here.? Tim

26th August 2005, 12:30 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	You got that right Tim! If it were one of the better Tlingit knives it would be in my "if-I-win-the-lottery" category of knives. Still, it's an interesting philosophical question: for instance, if an anglo makes an accurate Medieval English sword, it's a copy, whereas if an Tlingit makes a copper knife, it's genuine. I'm not saying it all makes sense, but it does make life more interesting than it would be otherwise F

26th August 2005, 12:40 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Very well placed comments Fearn! While as collectors of antique ethnographic weapons we of course seek evidence of age with patination and such standard indicators, but we do need to remember that in many cultural spheres, the weapons still remain key in ceremonial, ritual and traditional costume. Weapons that are authentically established for such purposes in those cultures remain fascinating examples regardless if relatively recently manufactured. Best regards, Jim

26th August 2005, 02:04 AM	#6
tomahawk Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 14	Thanks everyone for your comments. I have sent photos to a museum curator per Mark's request. I received an email from the museum and unfortunately will not hear from them until after Sept. 11. Will update as soon as I hear something. thanks again Tomahawk