Wootz Shamshir for Comments

RSWORD · 24th March 2012, 01:52 PM

You have a very nice and fairly early wootz blade with a beautiful pattern. The yelman and long, almost spear-like point indicate an earlier blade. In my opinion, this blade could be 17th or 18th century. The blade profile seems to be wider at the hilt with good taper and if the blade has good heft/weight these would be other indications of an earlier blade. Of course, with the yelman, I would refer to this blade as a kilij. It is an earlier kilij form. I wouldn't worry about whether or not the grip slabs are original or not as the blade is the real treasure.

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2012, 02:12 PM

Hey RSWORD, thanks!

Yes the blade is rather thick and has some good weight to it. Its very interesting that it could be that old. Is it common for such blades to have hardened edge?

I wont be touching the hilt slabs then as I think the repair is an old one. But considering that Kuwait has lots of dust storms.. I may make a scabbard just for protection.

RSWORD · 25th March 2012, 02:11 AM

Yes, you do find shamshir and kilij blades that were heat treated. When a blade is in new polish, this will often show up as a darker zone along the cutting edge, analogous to a hamon.

A.alnakkas · 25th March 2012, 06:53 PM

Thanks alot for the information, RSWORD.

Does having a false edge classifies a blade as a kilij or does it have to be a raised false edge?

Does the blade included on this post counts as a kilij?

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 11:40 AM

I also like the blade and wootz pattern.
I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century.
To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old

I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

A.alnakkas · 26th March 2012, 01:21 PM

hey Alex,

excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time?

Lotfy

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 04:24 PM

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

Interesting. I think its more rational to think the false edge is original because it would make no sense for the smith to heat treat the dull part of the blade. And it just happens that the heat treatment ends where the false edge ends.

Any idea where such a hilt might be used? Am thinking Syria but certain features are not there..

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 02:58 PM

Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern.
The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 06:34 PM

Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-)

25th March 2012, 06:53 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks alot for the information, RSWORD. Does having a false edge classifies a blade as a kilij or does it have to be a raised false edge? Does the blade included on this post counts as a kilij? Attached Images Last edited by A.alnakkas; 25th March 2012 at 07:09 PM.

27th March 2012, 06:34 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-) Attached Images

24th March 2012, 01:52 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	You have a very nice and fairly early wootz blade with a beautiful pattern. The yelman and long, almost spear-like point indicate an earlier blade. In my opinion, this blade could be 17th or 18th century. The blade profile seems to be wider at the hilt with good taper and if the blade has good heft/weight these would be other indications of an earlier blade. Of course, with the yelman, I would refer to this blade as a kilij. It is an earlier kilij form. I wouldn't worry about whether or not the grip slabs are original or not as the blade is the real treasure.

24th March 2012, 02:12 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey RSWORD, thanks! Yes the blade is rather thick and has some good weight to it. Its very interesting that it could be that old. Is it common for such blades to have hardened edge? I wont be touching the hilt slabs then as I think the repair is an old one. But considering that Kuwait has lots of dust storms.. I may make a scabbard just for protection.

25th March 2012, 02:11 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Yes, you do find shamshir and kilij blades that were heat treated. When a blade is in new polish, this will often show up as a darker zone along the cutting edge, analogous to a hamon.

26th March 2012, 11:40 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I also like the blade and wootz pattern. I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century. To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

26th March 2012, 01:21 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	hey Alex, excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time? Lotfy

26th March 2012, 04:24 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

27th March 2012, 02:58 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern. The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)