A unique bronze barrel wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), Nuremberg, ca. 1515-20

cannonmn · 24th March 2012, 06:52 AM

All I can think of is that the x-ray tester made a mistake. I had the operator shoot the machine at the muzzle of the hackbut to stay well clear of the small iron pieces nearer the breech. He shot several other objects I had, all either iron or steel, and the results on all of those seemed quite reasonable. I'm wondering if he had to change a setting on the machine to get a correct reading for a nonferrous object, and didn't do so? I didn't tell him the hackbut wasn't iron like all the other things. I'll have to ask him during the coming work-week.

Matchlock · 24th March 2012, 02:34 PM

Hi John,

This result does not puzzle me at all. Actually it represents what one should expect of early 16th c. bronzes; moreover it pefectly backs up metallurgic analyses of early-16th c. gun bronzes carried out in the 1960's, which I have menioned earlier on this forum. They even found traces of silver and other metallic components.

I think this is due to at least three different facts:

Firstly, raw ore in these ages could not be melted to be as pure as it can be today.
Secondly, all the knowledge on the reliability of bronze the founders then had was based merely on practical experience. I would imagine them them to have deliberately added traces of other sorts of metal because they believed - or had learned - that these additions would make the outcome more durable.
Thirdly, popular superstition played an enormous role in ages past. This means that people believed that certain substances just had to be added to whatever they were about to produce in order to ge a good result. It was magic make believe instead of today's hardheaded science that ruled over everday arts and crafts, including medicine and fireworks. When analyzing 16th-17th firework substances you e.g. find traces of urine - simply because it contained saltpeter - and various earths. People felt that that special mixture would guarantee a great outcome - and it obviously did.

Please also cf.
http://books.google.de/books?id=4Ozo...ronzes&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_...edieval_Europe

When I had the varnish of one of my Landsknecht arquebus of. ca. 1540 spectroanalyzed in the early 1990's traces of silver and even gold were discovered - in the dark brown lacquer on an almost 500 year-old gun stock!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 22nd May 2012, 04:23 PM

After a couple of years I wish to add some more close-ups uf my huge Nuremberg wallgun (doppelter Dopelhaken) that this thread is about.

What I have not mentioned before: it is preserved complete together with its original wooden ramrod (wormed and repaired in places, rear end incomplete) retaining its blackened threaded iron finial (Setzerkopf) and the original scourer (Laufkrätzer)! The ramrod is seen resting on the left side of the heavy piece; it was broken into three separate parts when I bought it some 25 years ago.
The wooden muzzle plug is old but associated.
The originally swiveling pan cover is missing from the barrel.

The gun and ramrod were claimed by the previous owner to have been deaccessioned by the Princely Collections of Hohenlohe-Langenburg in Franconia in the 1960's. On attending their collections by special appointment I photographed two similar Nuremberg bronze wall pieces the better of which, dated 1525, I posted above in post #6.

m

Matchlock · 22nd May 2012, 04:25 PM

Three more, showing details of the ramrod with its blackened iron finial retaining the original scourer.

m

Matchlock · 23rd May 2012, 10:30 PM

Wow, 3,000 views of this thread is reason enough to say thanks!

This wall gun is a great historical piece and unique in any private collection worldwide.

I am very happy to have been able and hold it.

m

Matchlock · 24th May 2012, 03:39 PM

Two similar and contemoprary, but notably smaller Nuremberg barrels of wallguns, the first ca. 1520, the second with its shorter muzzle section ca. 1510-15, both struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, which, when found on bronze barrels, can be safely attriuted to the Nuremberg founder Sebald Behaim whose name was pronounced Pehaim in his Franconian dialect.

The other prolific Nuremberg bronze foundry, that of Endres Pegnitzer, can be safely ruled out for marked barrels as he is known to have signed his barrels EPGM, for Endres Pegnitzer Goss Mich (Endres Pegnitzer founded me), the letters characteristically cast in high relief within a coat-of-arms.

In safe conclusion this means that for barrels unsigned and unmarked, either foundry of Behaim/Pehaim or Pegintzer may be held accountable while when a bronze/brass barrel is struck with a minuscule p mark, it should be attributed to the Behaim/Pehaim workshop.

Attached at bottom is a very fine but unsigned and unmarked Nuremberg wallgun barrel of ca. 1520-25, preserved retaining an unusually charming emerald green patina.

m

Matchlock · 24th May 2012, 03:44 PM

One more close-up of the rear section; as on most early-16th c. bronze barrels, the originally swiveling pan cover is missing while the riveted pin is preserved.

24th March 2012, 02:34 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi John, This result does not puzzle me at all. Actually it represents what one should expect of early 16th c. bronzes; moreover it pefectly backs up metallurgic analyses of early-16th c. gun bronzes carried out in the 1960's, which I have menioned earlier on this forum. They even found traces of silver and other metallic components. I think this is due to at least three different facts: Firstly, raw ore in these ages could not be melted to be as pure as it can be today. Secondly, all the knowledge on the reliability of bronze the founders then had was based merely on practical experience. I would imagine them them to have deliberately added traces of other sorts of metal because they believed - or had learned - that these additions would make the outcome more durable. Thirdly, popular superstition played an enormous role in ages past. This means that people believed that certain substances just had to be added to whatever they were about to produce in order to ge a good result. It was magic make believe instead of today's hardheaded science that ruled over everday arts and crafts, including medicine and fireworks. When analyzing 16th-17th firework substances you e.g. find traces of urine - simply because it contained saltpeter - and various earths. People felt that that special mixture would guarantee a great outcome - and it obviously did. Please also cf. http://books.google.de/books?id=4Ozo...ronzes&f=false http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_...edieval_Europe When I had the varnish of one of my Landsknecht arquebus of. ca. 1540 spectroanalyzed in the early 1990's traces of silver and even gold were discovered - in the dark brown lacquer on an almost 500 year-old gun stock! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 24th March 2012 at 04:50 PM.

22nd May 2012, 04:23 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	After a couple of years I wish to add some more close-ups uf my huge Nuremberg wallgun (doppelter Dopelhaken) that this thread is about. What I have not mentioned before: it is preserved complete together with its original wooden ramrod (wormed and repaired in places, rear end incomplete) retaining its blackened threaded iron finial (Setzerkopf) and the original scourer (Laufkrätzer)! The ramrod is seen resting on the left side of the heavy piece; it was broken into three separate parts when I bought it some 25 years ago. The wooden muzzle plug is old but associated. The originally swiveling pan cover is missing from the barrel. The gun and ramrod were claimed by the previous owner to have been deaccessioned by the Princely Collections of Hohenlohe-Langenburg in Franconia in the 1960's. On attending their collections by special appointment I photographed two similar Nuremberg bronze wall pieces the better of which, dated 1525, I posted above in post #6. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd May 2012 at 06:00 PM.

22nd May 2012, 04:25 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Three more, showing details of the ramrod with its blackened iron finial retaining the original scourer. m Attached Images

23rd May 2012, 10:30 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Wow, 3,000 views of this thread is reason enough to say thanks! This wall gun is a great historical piece and unique in any private collection worldwide. I am very happy to have been able and hold it. m Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd May 2012 at 10:43 PM.

24th May 2012, 03:44 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	One more close-up of the rear section; as on most early-16th c. bronze barrels, the originally swiveling pan cover is missing while the riveted pin is preserved. Attached Images

24th March 2012, 06:52 AM	#1
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	All I can think of is that the x-ray tester made a mistake. I had the operator shoot the machine at the muzzle of the hackbut to stay well clear of the small iron pieces nearer the breech. He shot several other objects I had, all either iron or steel, and the results on all of those seemed quite reasonable. I'm wondering if he had to change a setting on the machine to get a correct reading for a nonferrous object, and didn't do so? I didn't tell him the hackbut wasn't iron like all the other things. I'll have to ask him during the coming work-week.

24th May 2012, 03:39 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two similar and contemoprary, but notably smaller Nuremberg barrels of wallguns, the first ca. 1520, the second with its shorter muzzle section ca. 1510-15, both struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, which, when found on bronze barrels, can be safely attriuted to the Nuremberg founder Sebald Behaim whose name was pronounced Pehaim in his Franconian dialect. The other prolific Nuremberg bronze foundry, that of Endres Pegnitzer, can be safely ruled out for marked barrels as he is known to have signed his barrels EPGM, for Endres Pegnitzer Goss Mich (Endres Pegnitzer founded me), the letters characteristically cast in high relief within a coat-of-arms. In safe conclusion this means that for barrels unsigned and unmarked, either foundry of Behaim/Pehaim or Pegintzer may be held accountable while when a bronze/brass barrel is struck with a minuscule p mark, it should be attributed to the Behaim/Pehaim workshop. Attached at bottom is a very fine but unsigned and unmarked Nuremberg wallgun barrel of ca. 1520-25, preserved retaining an unusually charming emerald green patina. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 24th May 2012 at 05:16 PM.