Two handed swords

[Jean-Marc S.]

Here is an additional pic of katzbalger.

[Matchlock]

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

@ Michael,

which two katzbalgers do you mean ?, the first katzbalger is posted by Lee in your katzbalger thread!!!!(also in post#37 of this thread)
I do believe Lee's katzbalger is a genuine piece! probably with a later added poem.

and the second one is the katzbalger of Jean-Marc under discussion


@ Jean-Marc
the type and shape of the katzbalger are in accordance with katzbalgers which are known.
The symbols from the 16th century are also well known.

nevertheless there are some features that I find difficult to place:
- The grip is made outof one single piece of iron, there is no horn ring used between the guard and pommelgrip, this differs from the known katzbalgers of this type.

- The three moons in the blade are struck in as a makers mark, a coat of arms would have been engraved in the blade not stamped.
Also, the size and position is rather unusual for a makers mark.

- The Passau wolf and orbs are engraved very lightly on the surface.
many of these marks are deeper and often also have an inlay in latten hammered in.

- The "business" damage to the edge is ​​too extreme.

I really hope like you that this turns out to be an original katzbalger, but my advice is to have this investigated by a specialist with the piece in hands.

hopes it helps

best,

[Matchlock]

O.k., you cannot prove the 'authenticiry' of a 19th c. item by comparing it with another 19th c. companion. Of course, they are similar and show the same characteristics - but they are both not genuine.

Guess I'd better quit on this topic. I know what I know and I stick to what I said.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Contrary to your opinion on this thread, I do think both katzbalgers are genuine, of renaissance period. No doubt about that, but please stay with us on this thread !

Thanks in advance,

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,
Thanks for the posts.
Indeed, the first katzbalger is from Lee. You are right on the different points and also when saying that one should have the sword in hands to analyze it with better feeling and accuracy in judgment. Last week, I have shown the beast to an old senior collector owning an incredible collection of antique swords and armors he started in the 1970's (of course very rich ! I got the landsknecht captain armor with him); After careful expertise de visu, he confirmed the katzbalger is fully renaissance period (not composite), similar to the advised opinion of Ton Bolk.

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

I discovered an interesting find (at least to me): when looking at the book entitled 'The Landsknechts' (Mens-at-arms series number 58, Douglas Miller and GA Embleton), I noticed that, facing the third quarter of coat-of-arms depicting the 'three moons' motif (which is found on katzbalger's blade), the fourth quarter of the same coat-of-arms shows the personal flag/standard of Georg Von Frundsberg (Lord of Midelheim), the father and supreme commander of Landsknechts !
Therefore, it appears clear that this particular 'three moons' motif should be somehow 'linked' to the Landsknechts...

jm

To Michael: for information, the etching ('Passau wolf' and 'three orbs and crosses' motifs) on katzbalger's blade is not light (the pics of poor quality do not actually render justice to etching).

[cornelistromp]

the third quarter of sachsen-lauenburg coat of arms are no moons but three water-lily leaves, standing for the County of Brehna! see picture count Friedrich.
the crossed swords indicate the Saxon office as Imperial Arch-Marshal meaning the Saxon privilege to elect a prince.
This weapon of "kurzschwerter"are widely spread among the German nobility.

Unfortunately the logic of your theory in the previous post escapes me completely.

Due to the average execution and workmanship, this katzbalger is not very convincing. it looks like there is not much support to find, to designate this katzbalger as original 16thC.

though I also incline strongly to a later 19thC reproduction, it can still be authentic.
if you can live with this that's fine, if you want more certainty, you can ask a specialist/authority in the known auction houses.
For example, Hermann Historica; Robert Weis or Nicholas McCullough
they have made an excellent cataloque describtion of the Karsten Klingbeil collection.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Cornelistromp for giving your opinion, that appears to have now evolved (and which is not mine).
In heraldry, the quarters of almost every coat-of-arms vary significantly over the years or decades. Accordingly, I found another shape for the same quarter, also resembling the 'three moons' motif but still different from the two presented here.

jm

[Matchlock]

A documentation of typical 19th-20th century Katzbalger copies similar to the one posted here in post 45 is available!

I do not wish to post them here so anybody interested please pm me and you will receive that documentation, including close-ups and current market prices!

Best,
m