Luzon Bolo With Wootz Blade!

Battara · 25th August 2005, 06:15 AM

Here is a Kurdish jambiya I have for comparison. Notice the difference in structure (though close to the gunong). This is a wootz blade.

Battara · 25th August 2005, 06:22 AM

Finally here is an Ottoman jambiya with wootz closeup. I must admit at first I had trouble telling the wootz from really good lamination, but now I look at how the patterns fall back on themselves or how the crystalization is. Although you can see some swirling in this closeup, you can see the crystalization easily.

Side note, Ann glad you went to the museum. Let me know when you come in town to see the museum again. What did you think of the place?

Lew · 25th August 2005, 11:31 AM

Battara

Can you provide us with a closeup that covers a wider area of the gunong need to see more of the pattern.

Lew

Spunjer · 25th August 2005, 03:32 PM

i know we're talking about the blade, but does anybody notice the deco on the handle? besides the stars, there's also the crescent moon (ibeam brought this up), most likely denoting Islam. i realize it's a luzon bolo (or is it? hmmm), but the original owner prolly has some roots in mindanao. this could be a clue...

Jens Nordlunde · 25th August 2005, 04:05 PM

Hi Ann,

In Elgood’s book ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’, page 301, note 9 under ‘Glossary’ he writes, ‘Java lay on the sea route between China and Iran. Trade was extensive during the Song dynasty (960-1270) and reached its peak during the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). Many Persians settled the southeast coast of China and there was considerable sea trade with Hormuz until the Ispha (Persian, ‘large army’) rebellion of 1357-66 in Fujian, after which the Muslims fled or were killed.
Here Elgood tells about early sea trade routes, and in addition to the sea trading the caravans also traded a lot, especially the ones on the Silk Road, and the caravans going further into the countries, and like you say, good steel has always been a good thing to bring along for trading.
Nice Bolo and nice blade

.

All the best with your 'lecture'

.

Jens

Lew · 25th August 2005, 10:13 PM

Hi Guys

I spoke with Al Pendray today he saw the pictures and thinks it is Indian wootz and he agrees it wasn't forged from a billet to him it seems the blade was reworked from a larger sword blade.

Lew

RSWORD · 26th August 2005, 02:20 AM

This is a blade I would love to see in person. I do hope you have an opportunity to take it with you to the Ashokan seminar so that several people can have a close look at it. It is always better to form a firm opinion from something like this in person versus in pictures. At this time, I still remain skeptical and do not believe it to be wootz but I would love to see it in person and change my mind. If it is a reworked blade, I am curious as to what the spine of the blade looks like. Does it show any evidence of lamellar activity or the typical "cleft" one often finds on wootz blades?

bathala · 16th July 2023, 11:17 PM

To re open this thread I would like to contribute a pic of these peice. Olso a luzon. Im still uncertain but it looks like sham wootz. Still need to finish polish but I hope this can help more with the discussion

Gavin Nugent · 17th July 2023, 05:40 AM

This is interesting subject matter.

I recall similar back and forth I had on an Amanremu from the Kelling Hall Collection.

It was with what looked to be a three bar steel construction with typical scarf welding found on many Tulwar that have a root of non wootz and a blade of Wootz... image attached.

I'm still not convinced either way where the Amanremu concerned. I like to think it shows all the qualities of a scarf welded wootz blade when only the inserted edge is wootz and the smith did his best...and I cast my mind to a heirloom Tulwar here with an old Persian blade. It has a black wootz blade and what looks to be a very clear sham wootz inserted edge experly sandwiched within the black wootz...so anything is possible.

I am truly bewildered where with example in discussion is concerned... I look at sections in isolation and think there is potential given the smiths knowledge and abilities and that it is not something they would have worked with very often... but could certainly have obtained at some point in time... then I look at it over all in context and it reminds me of some very tight pattern welded barong blades I've seen, and some aspects I have seen on very fine pattern Welded Kukri too...
I think the definitive answer lays in more detailed testing as it could have been all down to the smith who just didn't quite nail it as it was not a common material choice...

25th August 2005, 06:15 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Here is a Kurdish jambiya I have for comparison. Notice the difference in structure (though close to the gunong). This is a wootz blade. Attached Images

25th August 2005, 06:22 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Finally here is an Ottoman jambiya with wootz closeup. I must admit at first I had trouble telling the wootz from really good lamination, but now I look at how the patterns fall back on themselves or how the crystalization is. Although you can see some swirling in this closeup, you can see the crystalization easily. Side note, Ann glad you went to the museum. Let me know when you come in town to see the museum again. What did you think of the place? Attached Images

25th August 2005, 04:05 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ann, In Elgood’s book ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’, page 301, note 9 under ‘Glossary’ he writes, ‘Java lay on the sea route between China and Iran. Trade was extensive during the Song dynasty (960-1270) and reached its peak during the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). Many Persians settled the southeast coast of China and there was considerable sea trade with Hormuz until the Ispha (Persian, ‘large army’) rebellion of 1357-66 in Fujian, after which the Muslims fled or were killed. Here Elgood tells about early sea trade routes, and in addition to the sea trading the caravans also traded a lot, especially the ones on the Silk Road, and the caravans going further into the countries, and like you say, good steel has always been a good thing to bring along for trading. Nice Bolo and nice blade. All the best with your 'lecture'. Jens

16th July 2023, 11:17 PM	#8
bathala Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 40	To re open this thread I would like to contribute a pic of these peice. Olso a luzon. Im still uncertain but it looks like sham wootz. Still need to finish polish but I hope this can help more with the discussion Attached Images

17th July 2023, 05:40 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An interesting topic This is interesting subject matter. I recall similar back and forth I had on an Amanremu from the Kelling Hall Collection. It was with what looked to be a three bar steel construction with typical scarf welding found on many Tulwar that have a root of non wootz and a blade of Wootz... image attached. I'm still not convinced either way where the Amanremu concerned. I like to think it shows all the qualities of a scarf welded wootz blade when only the inserted edge is wootz and the smith did his best...and I cast my mind to a heirloom Tulwar here with an old Persian blade. It has a black wootz blade and what looks to be a very clear sham wootz inserted edge experly sandwiched within the black wootz...so anything is possible. I am truly bewildered where with example in discussion is concerned... I look at sections in isolation and think there is potential given the smiths knowledge and abilities and that it is not something they would have worked with very often... but could certainly have obtained at some point in time... then I look at it over all in context and it reminds me of some very tight pattern welded barong blades I've seen, and some aspects I have seen on very fine pattern Welded Kukri too... I think the definitive answer lays in more detailed testing as it could have been all down to the smith who just didn't quite nail it as it was not a common material choice... Attached Images

25th August 2005, 11:31 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Battara Can you provide us with a closeup that covers a wider area of the gunong need to see more of the pattern. Lew

25th August 2005, 03:32 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i know we're talking about the blade, but does anybody notice the deco on the handle? besides the stars, there's also the crescent moon (ibeam brought this up), most likely denoting Islam. i realize it's a luzon bolo (or is it? hmmm), but the original owner prolly has some roots in mindanao. this could be a clue...

25th August 2005, 10:13 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys I spoke with Al Pendray today he saw the pictures and thinks it is Indian wootz and he agrees it wasn't forged from a billet to him it seems the blade was reworked from a larger sword blade. Lew

26th August 2005, 02:20 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	This is a blade I would love to see in person. I do hope you have an opportunity to take it with you to the Ashokan seminar so that several people can have a close look at it. It is always better to form a firm opinion from something like this in person versus in pictures. At this time, I still remain skeptical and do not believe it to be wootz but I would love to see it in person and change my mind. If it is a reworked blade, I am curious as to what the spine of the blade looks like. Does it show any evidence of lamellar activity or the typical "cleft" one often finds on wootz blades?