Two handed swords

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience.

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Cheers,

Iain

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael

No problem Michael, I only study a pretty small topic so I am a very limited collector and I don't get to post much in the European forum! I saw a little chance so I wanted to help out if I could. I really enjoy reading the expert posts from you and others on European arms.

Originally Posted by fernando

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf

Hi Fernando,

You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

[Matchlock]

That's exactly true for me as well - just that I am on the 'other side' of the forum!
m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

...Hi Fernando,
You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

Well I could have linked to my pride and joy... http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14757

Actually I think this blade with the three half moons could be some kind of later trade blade? Like the one I am attaching images of. These astral symbols with stars and moons seem to have been very popular in many areas outside of Europe.

The thing that seems odd to me, being a little used to looking at trade blades, is that the profile on this blade, flat, no fullers, not really any taper and rounded tip, is that it would be pretty unusual for a export blade for African or maybe middle Eastern swords. Actually I am struggling to think of what type of sword would have used it outside of Europe.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

They definitely do, just like the stocks of Turkish matchlock and miquelet guns, as well as those of Indian matchlock guns (and the mechanisms of the latter) carry on the early 16th c. North European tradition!

m

[cornelistromp]

re; Katzbalger
Unfortunately it is not possible, merely on the basis of the pictures to determine the authenticity.
The blade of flat lenticular section without a ricasso came one more katbalgers.
A one-piece iron grip I have not seen before, but this does not mean it has never existed.
The simple chisseled spirally fluting at the s-guard looks looks unusual so do the flat terminals, but again this means nothing.


The damage to the edge at the point is in my point of view not the result of fighting but is added later! At the tip, there are several notches applied at the same angle and force, it looks simulated!
I agree with Michaels comments on the marks orb and passau wolf.
( maybe not African but it does not look authentic/European)

all this does not mean that the sword is not the real thing , but when in doubt I would always have it examined.

re: 2hand sword
it is clear it never had the fleur de lys inside the guard.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the posts. For information, here are the comments of Mr. Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International forum) on the katzbalger blade markings:

'Nice sword indeed. From the distance it looks good to me, although in such pieces one should be very cautious regarding authenticity.

The markings are quite typical from the Renaissance and the Germanic area. Moons are easily found on German blades up to the 18th century, while orbs are a medieval theme often found in the next centuries.'


I have some clues that clearly show that these exact 'three crescent moon motifs' and three 'orb and cross' motifs are indeed German of the 16th century period. Have to find once more this information on the web and will post them in the forum

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here is a katzbalger that was sold by Hermann Historica (found it on the web). It appears to be similar to the one I bought from Bolk antiques, including at the level of blade and hilt.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello All,

The IDENTICAL shape of the 'three moon' motif is found in a German city coat-of-arms of the renaissance period. In this city coat-of-arms that contains three moons arranged in a triangle, the shape of the moons is IDENTICAL to that etched on the blade of the katzbalger. I have to review the 15,000 German city coat-of-arms to refind it one more time (Siebmacher, year 1605; link http://www.wappenbuch.com/) !
At the moment, I have reviewed only about a thousand of coat-of-arms !

Hope this helps,

jm