Two handed swords

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

I know nothing about genuine katzbalgers but I'm pretty sure that blade isn't from a Tuareg takouba or a Sudanese kaskara. The half moon stamps used are quite different on Saharan weapons (outline only, not stamping the entire shape like this, and are found in pairs, not the triple arrangement seen here. The profile of the blade also wouldn't fit for a kaskara or takouba. The scratched wolf and cross and orb are similar to some native African imitation marks however.

I don't have the expertise to judge the sword and obviously would bow to superior knowledge, but just wanted to say that the blade and the half moons do not correspond to any kaskara or takouba I've ever run across.

[Matchlock]

Hi Iain,


Here are just a few samples of Tuareg swords with double crescent blade marks from German sales of the past years; the sales dates are shown in the scans.

The marks on the last one are hardly visible but the description states that they are there.

Please cf.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...on-Makers-Mark

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=half+m...42&tx=16&ty=68

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14266


I should say that the experts on the Ethnographic section could tell you more on this topic.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

I am afraid you didn't get Iain's point, Michl

[Matchlock]

Sorry if I didn't.

I just tried to back up my thesis.

m

[Iain]

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience.

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Of course takouba and kaskara blades unfortunately often do turn up mated with basket hilts and the like to form modern fakes, but just looking at this blade, I don't think it's from a takouba or a kaskara. However I can't comment on the authenticity of the entire sword as it's very much out of my area of study and experience.

Cheers,

Iain

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Michael,

Actually those illustrate my point precisely. The form of the marks is different and typically focused only on the outline, they are also always encountered in pairs. On the katzbalger in question three half moons are stamped which would be incredibly unusual for a Tuareg sword. That is not to say it couldn't happen but it would be entirely unique in my experience.

The profile is also not correct for a Tuareg sword, if it had some decent age the tip would have long ago been narrowed from excessive sharpening and would show heavy sharpening marks as Tuaregs typically use stones to hone the edge with leave very distinctive long striations.

By the way the first sword is in fact a kaskara from the Sudan, not a Tuareg sword, in the case of kaskara the tip is almost always a sharp point, not rounded.

I actually only collect takouba so I am fairly comfortable on the topic which is why I thought I would leave a comment on this thread. You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website.

Cheers,

Iain

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael

No problem Michael, I only study a pretty small topic so I am a very limited collector and I don't get to post much in the European forum! I saw a little chance so I wanted to help out if I could. I really enjoy reading the expert posts from you and others on European arms.

Originally Posted by fernando

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf

Hi Fernando,

You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

[Matchlock]

That's exactly true for me as well - just that I am on the 'other side' of the forum!
m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

...Hi Fernando,
You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

Well I could have linked to my pride and joy... http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14757

Actually I think this blade with the three half moons could be some kind of later trade blade? Like the one I am attaching images of. These astral symbols with stars and moons seem to have been very popular in many areas outside of Europe.

The thing that seems odd to me, being a little used to looking at trade blades, is that the profile on this blade, flat, no fullers, not really any taper and rounded tip, is that it would be pretty unusual for a export blade for African or maybe middle Eastern swords. Actually I am struggling to think of what type of sword would have used it outside of Europe.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

They definitely do, just like the stocks of Turkish matchlock and miquelet guns, as well as those of Indian matchlock guns (and the mechanisms of the latter) carry on the early 16th c. North European tradition!

m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello All,

The IDENTICAL shape of the 'three moon' motif is found in a German city coat-of-arms of the renaissance period. In this city coat-of-arms that contains three moons arranged in a triangle, the shape of the moons is IDENTICAL to that etched on the blade of the katzbalger. I have to review the 15,000 German city coat-of-arms to refind it one more time (Siebmacher, year 1605; link http://www.wappenbuch.com/) !
At the moment, I have reviewed only about a thousand of coat-of-arms !

Hope this helps,

jm

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

...You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website...

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf