Two handed swords

[Matchlock]

Fully agreed, 'Nando,

Your comment was not the reason at all why I said I thought it was genuine. Let's see what Ottmar says ...

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

The second two-hand sword seems to feature a genuine North German early-17th c. blade.
It should however not be presented together with a late 16th c. horseman's armor and an early-16th c. style Katzbalger because this ensemble does not convey a homogeneous impression.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,


Thanks for responding so fast.

As concerns the Katzbalger:
I feel that we really need to see good close-ups of the ricasso section and the characteristic fluting which should be there. The overall length of the weapon should not fall short of ca. 88 cm, possible wear and working time shortening theoretically included.

As regards your ensemble: I did not mean to say it was bad by any means - which of us can present anything approximating that? Anyway, it is of museum quality, no doubt. It is both decorative and optically imposing. A fair compromise, no question.
After all, and just judging by a few pics, I think you have been doing very well!

Did you consider studying this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630



Best from Lower Bavaria for tonight,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hi Michael,

This is a Landsknecht officer (captain) infantry full armor, ca. 1560. They are described to wear a close combat katzbalger, as well as either an halberd/pike, or a two hand sword, as they were fighting on foot at the front ranks of their infantry company (fahlein), consisting of 400 landsknecht mercenaries. Only the colonel and the second in command, lieutnant colonel, were horsemen among landsknecht officers. This katzbalger should be mid 16th century (later period of landsknechts), due to the shape of the passau running wolf etched on blade and quillons.
The match should not be so bad !

Isn't it ?

Jm

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jean-Marc S.

Hello all,

Thanks for the interesting comments. Indeed, the katzbalger has been purchased in the Netherlands (at Bolk antiques, European dealer of fine antique Swords and Armors). It was previously in a 40-year old private collection. The seller in the Netherlands (Ton Bolk, highly recommended) got only one period katzbalger in almost 40-year business (this one) while many later 19th century replicas were obtained by the same and sold over the years...
Concerning the two hand sword (straight blade), I will look inside the ring guards later today and will let you know for the 'fleurs-de-Lys'.

The length of the Katzbalger is 74 cm. There are a mid 16th century 'Passau running wolf' (at center blade on two sides), and also (at ricasso) three 'cross and orb' motifs (in a triangle) one one side, and three moons (also in a triangle) on the reverse side of blade.

My best ,

jm

Hi,
yes ton Bolk offers very nice range of weapons, especially his firearms are generally in a beautiful condition.
BTW the authentic....katzbalgers post #95 and #96 in the above mentioned katzbalger thread are offered/sold by him in 2009.

Can you please post some detailed pictures of the Katzbalger, if possible of;
the hilt , the running wolf and all the marks in the ricasso, also of the extremely damaged edge.

thanks+regards,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Indeed, I have seen the (outstanding) link to the 'Katzbalger' thread. It is the best thread I ever found on any forum or so (can almost make a very well documented book with it !).

Thanks and all the best,

jm

[fernando]

Hi Jean Marc.
Could you show a close picture of the opposite (left) side of the katzbalger guard ?

[Atlantia]

Hi Jean-Marc

Beautiful armour and swords!

Can we see some close-ups of the second two hander please (the straight edged blade one). Especially the hilt and guard please.
Thank you
Gene

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Bonjour Jean-Marc,

yes, this is all correct.

beautifully homogeneous armor, excellent!

the 2 hand sword (without the blade Flamberge) is also from the middle of the 16th century (1550-1570), a similar same sword can be found in the livrustkammeren in Stockholm.(see picture Seitz Blankwaffen p 295).

are there any traces of where "fleur de lis" have been ,inside the ring-guards, most of this type 2-hander have them ?

the katzbalger, I think I have seen before, have you recently purchased it from a dealer in the Netherlands ?
to say something about it that makes sense, (probably) high resolution photographs are needed.


best,

Hi Jasper,

My friend - and I am completely with him - states that that was an old-fashioned first-half to mid-20th century dating unfortunately adopted by Seitz; weaponry has made progress ever since and the correct period assignment for this latest North German type of two-hand procesional swords should be '2nd decade 17th century'.

I attach images of a group of those North German two-hand swords acquired as 'Vortragschwerter' (processional swords) by the town council of Emden in ca. 1615 (!), and still preserved in the Emden Amory; one of them (see close-up) is comparable to the one in discussion.

The lower three photos taken by me in the Emden reserve collection in 1992 show a similar North German type, early 17th c., the grip missing, the ricasso with comparable engraved line decoration.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jean-Marc,

This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael

I know nothing about genuine katzbalgers but I'm pretty sure that blade isn't from a Tuareg takouba or a Sudanese kaskara. The half moon stamps used are quite different on Saharan weapons (outline only, not stamping the entire shape like this, and are found in pairs, not the triple arrangement seen here. The profile of the blade also wouldn't fit for a kaskara or takouba. The scratched wolf and cross and orb are similar to some native African imitation marks however.

I don't have the expertise to judge the sword and obviously would bow to superior knowledge, but just wanted to say that the blade and the half moons do not correspond to any kaskara or takouba I've ever run across.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

A sword similar type of the sword under discussion is also dated by Thomas del Mar end of 17thC.
see picture. but maybe he has also read from Seitz

The sword you show in the last 3 pictures is a composite 2-hander.
with a cross-guard from the processional swords almost certainly made for the guard of Julius, Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg in Heinrich Grubenhagen.
most of these swords have original blades which are dated 1573,1574,....
a composite Guard of Julius sword with a similar blade as the composite you have posted has been sold by Sothebys 5-15 oktober 2005, schloss Marienburg and is dated end of the 16thC.lot 231.
lot 224-lot230 are original Julius guard swords and all dated 1573/74


I think the 17thC processional swords you are refering to have diamand shaped bars at the guard and flat blades. (Io flat bars and diamands shaped blades)

best,
jasper

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Thanks for all this interesting information. At the Barcelona Citadel Museum, you can also see the weavy ornament at the ricasso of a similar two handed sword (see link below).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6830857...n/photostream/

My German two handed sword was previously on display in a Dutch Museum. It has been dated to ca. 1570 according to the information I have on it.

It is 184 cm length and weighs 3.8 kg (ca. 8 pounds) .

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

As to my cat (Katz), it remains outdoor because it probably saw that the 16th century Katzbalger is missing its original scabbard....

[Jean-Marc S.]

Sorry for the quality of some pics...

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Dmitry]

The sword in post #20 is indeed a replica, in my opinion.
Just my $.02

[Matchlock]

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

The crescents on the blade don't look to inspiring either. The dozens of nicks on the blade were supposed to make it look like a battle weapon, I guess.

[Matchlock]

Exactly, Dmitry,

And to 'prove' the 'great age' of the piece!

m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Quite right, Dmitry,

I would say the blade with its way too many nicks looks 'overaged', apart from the fact that the sectioning of the blade (lenticular cross section) is not corrrect and the overall length is too short.

Best,
Michael

Originally Posted by Dmitry

The crescents on the blade don't look to inspiring either. The dozens of nicks on the blade were supposed to make it look like a battle weapon, I guess.

Gentlemen, a small side-note. stand apart from the weapon of course.

a lenticular cross section is possible on katzbalgers in the 16thC , it even came on early medieval swords.

best,

for more twohanders please see;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twohander

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

In reference to the 'Three moons' motif mark found on blade of 16th century Katzbalger : as mentioned previously, such an IDENTICAL 'three moons' motif is found on German coat-of-arms (see third quarter) of Sachsen-Lauenburg, indicating an actual german origin of such motif, rather than african or so (as suggested in some posts). I will search in other german cities coat-of-arms too.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

The 'three orbs and crosses' motif (three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle) is described to be typical german mark of the mid-16th century. There is a previous post in the forum showing exactly the same pattern of three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some information from specialized books, that I got on the web (Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, published in 1885; Gyngell's Armourers marks, page 30).

- The shape of 'orb and cross' motif found on katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one shown on pic (plate 1: number 24, and plate 2: middle orb mark), indicating a 16th century period, coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'three orbs and crosses' motif -with orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle- is also reported to be typical German 16th century (not shown in this post: I have to refind it on the web ), also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'Passau running wolf' motif etched on both sides of katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one described to be mid-16th century, also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade. Interestingly, it has some additional details that were also reported amongst known variants of the 'Passau running wolf' (see plate 3, number 14).

Such blade marks are therefore totally coherent with a German 16th century blade...

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,

Here is another 16th century katzbalger (found among forum posts) that does not show any fullers on blade. Interestingly, a renaissance poem is etched on the blade

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Here is an additional pic of katzbalger.

[Matchlock]

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael