Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

Salaams Iain, It is rather odd. I knew about the story more than 25 years ago when I first really got interested in Khanjars and it seemed fairly common knowledge then... however people have short memories and I cannot find a reference to back it up except that on this forum there is an old reference citing the origin to the period of ruler at the time said bin sultan between 1806 and 1856. Certainly no pictures paintings or graphics of previous sultans have the royal hilt form but after that they do... and there are some graphics with that sultan in the royal hilt. The rumour was that a beautiful princess had designed the hilt and that she was Persian. What the rumour(if that is what it is) did not specify was that she had beeen divorced essentially for adultery and had gone back to Persia etc etc. in the date range outlined by me... I have raided almost every resource on the web to not much avail and will check it out fully on a future museum visit.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Larry in 2005 on the "Khanjar Identification" thread #3 noted in very much the terms as I have ... quote "The story goes that the Persian queen of Oman, the loyal loving Persian wife of Al Bu Said Sayydi Ibn Sultan who reigned Oman in 1806-1856, thought that the classical Omani Khanjar, with the rather simple I shaped handles was boring, and designed a new and more flashy khanjar dagger for her husband birthday. The new style rapidly become very popular and its used was spread all over the Arabian peninsula." Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Yes "elf layla wa layla" "The thousand and one nights" tales Scheherazade (Persian: شهرزاد‎ Šahrzād also called Shahrazad) is the legendary Persian queen and the storyteller and narrator of The Nights. She is the daughter of the kingdom's vizier and sister of Dunyazad(Persian: دنیازاد‎).She marries King Shahryar, who has vowed that he will execute a new bride everyday. For 1001 nights, Scheherazade tells her husband a story every night, stopping at dawn with a cliffhanger, forcing the King to keep her alive for another day.

It is quite odd since the Sultan apparently built baths for Sheherazade in 1850 at Zanzibar but the chronicles have her running off to Persia earlier than that... As a precaution and until I can unravel that error I have estimated 1850 as the rough date for the Royal hilt ~ I also find it strange that a Dynastic Hilt was designed by a wife of an important Sultan .. when she ran away with another man ! More work needed on this story! At least I have some roughly accurate names and dates to play with.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ! Not that we are unfamiliar around here with the concept of red herrings ~ but ~ The second or third wife of the ruler of Oman at that time Sayyid Said bin Sultan (who ruled the al busaiyyidi dynasty 1806 to 1856 when he died on board ship near Zanzibar and succeeded by 36 children according to references) was the daughter of Persian Royalty and her name was Sheherazad.

"It is said" that the Persian princess was responsible for the new royal hilt design.... and though a specific reference is avoiding me at the moment I'm sure it will surface to that effect as we go forward. I take the 1850 mark as somewhere to park this for the time being until clarity prevails. Some slight readjustment looks likely in the date by a decade or so earlier however that will probably pan out later. For sure there are no signs of this hilt until the one seen worn by the ruler in a picture viewable at images of him on the web and by subsequent rulers and others thereafter.

The hilt does look similar to other variants like the adjoining Saudia region close to Oman ( Habbaabi style; not to be confused with Wahhaabi ) but is said to have been concocted around Indian or Indo Persian fashion by his Persain wife. (it can only have been Sheherazade)

The reference http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....rsiaqajar.html indicates that she married Said Sultan in 1827 viz;

Shahzadi (name unknown), married in July 1827, Sayyid Said bin Sultan Al-Busaid, Sultan of Oman.

And that her father was viz;

HIM Shahanshah FATH ALI SHAH, 2nd Shahanshah of Persia 1797/1834, born 1771, married (amongst others) about 1797, Agaba Begum, daughter of Khan Ebrahim Khan, Khan of Qarabagh, married (b), Taj ud-Dawlah, married (c), Ziba Chehr Khanum, and had issue, 57 sons and 46 daughters. He died 23rd October 1834 in Isfahan and was buried at Qum.

Some time line confusion exists over when she left permanently and the web states in many references that the Persian baths in Kidichi, Zanzibar, were built for Sultan Said’s second wife Sheherazade, the daughter of a Persian Shah or Persia. This is claimed to be 1850 in a host of references apparently copied from the same source.

Thus the temporary allowance of 1850 attributed to the Royal Hilt appearance..which must be close.

An image appears with notes at http://safmuseum.gov.om/pop40.html on the provenance timewise but so far as I can see not absolute..on the Royal Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely outstanding and well presented research Ibrahiim!!!
It would seem that the 'red herring' would be from my own net and was by my presumption of the apparantly well established Persian name Sheherazade being fancifully woven into the stories on the origins of this distinct khanjhar hilt form. Obviously such a fabled name would be a select choice within regal families for a daughter, and such traditions run deeply.
My associations with the popular figure in literature and later even in theatricals and films then we can relegate to an interesting coincidence in name, not relevant to this research.

Returning to our case on this hilt form, it would seem that the terminus a quo for the introduction of these embellishments on the extant Omani khanjhar hilt form would correspond to the period of his marraige to this wife (1827-1836? depending on details of her departure with another suitor). There are no details of further specifics in Elgood, but I am wondering if the reference he often cites, "Tribes of Oman" (J.R.C.Carter, 1982) might have more. In any case, the 'design', which simply carries embellishments to the overall motif on the regular Omani khanjhar hilt, does seem to have attained great popularity and wide diffusion in its use.

Though this focus would seem to be outside the scope of this thread on kattara and the Omani old sayf, it is well placed in examining the context of events that may have bearing on the development of these swords as well.
It is great to have this kind of comprehensive dimension in discussions!

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely outstanding and well presented research Ibrahiim!!!
It would seem that the 'red herring' would be from my own net and was by my presumption of the apparantly well established Persian name Sheherazade being fancifully woven into the stories on the origins of this distinct khanjhar hilt form. Obviously such a fabled name would be a select choice within regal families for a daughter, and such traditions run deeply.
My associations with the popular figure in literature and later even in theatricals and films then we can relegate to an interesting coincidence in name, not relevant to this research.

Returning to our case on this hilt form, it would seem that the terminus a quo for the introduction of these embellishments on the extant Omani khanjhar hilt form would correspond to the period of his marraige to this wife (1827-1836? depending on details of her departure with another suitor). There are no details of further specifics in Elgood, but I am wondering if the reference he often cites, "Tribes of Oman" (J.R.C.Carter, 1982) might have more. In any case, the 'design', which simply carries embellishments to the overall motif on the regular Omani khanjhar hilt, does seem to have attained great popularity and wide diffusion in its use.

Though this focus would seem to be outside the scope of this thread on kattara and the Omani old sayf, it is well placed in examining the context of events that may have bearing on the development of these swords as well.
It is great to have this kind of comprehensive dimension in discussions!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim,
Yes this is quite a diversion though as you point out it is also important (Oh I think we just crashed through the 10 thousand barrier ! ) My money is on the second wife not the third (therefor not Scheherezade the Persian lady whos real name was Binte Irich Mirza ) because the second wife was the woman behind the throne and looked after affairs of state. Even if the Persian wife had her hand on the design it would never have got accepted into the Royal Household without the say-so of the second wife "azze binte sayf bin ahmed". It looks like Sheherazade was in fact the grand daughter of the Persian Shah and she had a lover .. disappeared back to Persia, became divorced, and apparently joined the army to fight against the Omanis... This lady certainly had attitude !!

It looks like circa 1840 / 1850 as a probable date bracket for the Khanjar and "Sayf Yamaani" (The Old Omani Battle Sword) Royal Hilt Forms. It can be assumed, therefor, that the Sayf Yamaani became iconized in that date period. It may indicate the date in which it ceased to be the weapon used in the Funoon Pageants and was superceded around that time by the straight sayf; The Dancing Sword. If that is the case this could also be the lynchpin connector to the long hilt migrating from the dancing sword to the curved Kattara.... and Kattara iconization to boot.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A Partial quote from #307; Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often been lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Reference Duly Traced.
Salaams Jim~ On sweeping back I noticed your reference to The Elgood quote at # 307 which inspires me to recommend the simple but brilliantly done pamphlet by Ruth Hawley on Omani Silver (Longman) now out of print (ISBN 0 582 78070 5) In my opinion the best work ever on Omani Silver. For many years and to date this was the only book worth carrying and my copy is in shreads! She indeed does mention the Persian Princess (though not by name, however, there was only one.. "Sheherazade")

"There is a story," she says; that the wife of Sayyid Said bin Sultan, a Persian Princess, grew bored with the curved top of her husbands khanjar, and designed a more ornate one to brighten him up. She is also credited with designing the Al Bu Said Turban.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Reference A; 237 of Early makers trade marks (Jim McDougall)
Reference B; Omani Sayf; markings for ID (Ilyiad)

Salaams all, There is an interesting discussion on European with the addition by fernando of a Spanish Rapier which I have considered omongst other things as evidence toward the problem of which mark was copied onto Arabian blades ? ~ The Perrillo Spanish Dog or the Running Woolf of Solingen?

It is my view that whereas German Swords flooded the African market in the 18/19th Centuries that the running woolf was here earlier in the shape of Portuguese weapons and Spanish (both Navies were in these waters) from the late 1400s. The Portuguese in particular were stationed as a foothold on Muscat where they built forts Mirani and Jelali and other places such as Sohar, Musandam, Bahrain etc... from which blade marks could have been seen and copied by local smiths.
The only definition seems to be that the running woolf is seen as running whilst the perrillo dog is more of a rampant rearing shape.

As a secondary note the discussion involves the blademark of a zig zag snakelike object also seen at reference B.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ I was backtracking through the library and ran into something on Omani Saifs #7 by Jens Nordelunde an absolute master of Indian weapons in particular and noted his excellent addition to this debate which I now include on this thread~

Quote "Besides all the blades made in the region, they had a big import of blades and ingots from other countries, India being one of them.
With your interest of old blades from the region I think you will enjoy this book - Hoyland, Robert G. and Gilmoure, Brian: Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking. Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’. Gibb Memorial Trust, London, 2006.

In the book the authors tell of the very famous Yemen blade, and a lot of other interesting things about blades." Unquote.

I don't have the reference.. but if anyone has it (and I am searching the web) please help in reference to this so called famous Yemeni blade which may be the link to the Old Omani Battle Sword blade. AKA "Sayf Yamaani"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.