Kattara for comments

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850.
Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting, can I ask why it is assumed the designer was the wife?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Iain ~This is almost impossible to prove beyond doubt therefor I begin by saying that ~"It is said that"~ It seems she(Sheherazad) was bored with the usual khanjar form and using her Persian design ideas created what I can only describe as an Indo Persian hilt. Detail is scant since this lady seems to have run off with her lover back to Persia(aprox 1832) and when she was married only seemed interested in gallavanting about like a wild thing horseriding and so forth.(seems reasonable to me!) The Sultan(Bin Sayf) meanwhile went on to sire something like 36 children with other wives (none with her) though it looks like nearer 50 or 60, however, 36 survived his death in 1856

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note~ (Sayyid) Said bin Sultan Al-Said (Arabic: سعيد بن سلطان‎, Sa‘id bin Sulṭān) (June 5, 1797 - October 19, 1856) was Sultan of Muscat and Oman from November 20, 1804 to June 4, 1856. He became joint ruler of the country along with his brother Salim on the death of their father, Sultan bin Ahmad, in 1804. Said deprived his brother of joint rule on September 14, 1806.

In 1837, he conquered the town of Mombasa, Kenya. In 1840, Said bin Sultan moved his capital from Muscat, Oman, to Stone Town, Zanzibar. In 1840, he sent a ship to the United States in an attempt to establish a trading relationship.

Upon Said's death in 1856, his realm was divided: his third son, Thuwaini bin Said, became the Sultan of Muscat and Oman; and his sixth son, Sayyid Majid bin Said, became the Sultan of Zanzibar.

The National Museum of Oman in Muscat still houses numerous items of silverware and other possessions that belonged to Said.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~This is almost impossible to prove beyond doubt therefor I begin by saying that ~"It is said that"~ It seems she(Sheherazad) was bored with the usual khanjar form and using her Persian design ideas created what I can only describe as an Indo Persian hilt. Detail is scant since this lady seems to have run off with her lover back to Persia(aprox 1832) and when she was married only seemed interested in gallavanting about like a wild thing horseriding and so forth.(seems reasonable to me!) The Sultan(Bin Sayf) meanwhile went on to sire something like 36 children with other wives (none with her) though it looks like nearer 50 or 60, however, 36 survived his death in 1856

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

Salaams Iain, It is rather odd. I knew about the story more than 25 years ago when I first really got interested in Khanjars and it seemed fairly common knowledge then... however people have short memories and I cannot find a reference to back it up except that on this forum there is an old reference citing the origin to the period of ruler at the time said bin sultan between 1806 and 1856. Certainly no pictures paintings or graphics of previous sultans have the royal hilt form but after that they do... and there are some graphics with that sultan in the royal hilt. The rumour was that a beautiful princess had designed the hilt and that she was Persian. What the rumour(if that is what it is) did not specify was that she had beeen divorced essentially for adultery and had gone back to Persia etc etc. in the date range outlined by me... I have raided almost every resource on the web to not much avail and will check it out fully on a future museum visit.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Larry in 2005 on the "Khanjar Identification" thread #3 noted in very much the terms as I have ... quote "The story goes that the Persian queen of Oman, the loyal loving Persian wife of Al Bu Said Sayydi Ibn Sultan who reigned Oman in 1806-1856, thought that the classical Omani Khanjar, with the rather simple I shaped handles was boring, and designed a new and more flashy khanjar dagger for her husband birthday. The new style rapidly become very popular and its used was spread all over the Arabian peninsula." Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Yes "elf layla wa layla" "The thousand and one nights" tales Scheherazade (Persian: شهرزاد‎ Šahrzād also called Shahrazad) is the legendary Persian queen and the storyteller and narrator of The Nights. She is the daughter of the kingdom's vizier and sister of Dunyazad(Persian: دنیازاد‎).She marries King Shahryar, who has vowed that he will execute a new bride everyday. For 1001 nights, Scheherazade tells her husband a story every night, stopping at dawn with a cliffhanger, forcing the King to keep her alive for another day.

It is quite odd since the Sultan apparently built baths for Sheherazade in 1850 at Zanzibar but the chronicles have her running off to Persia earlier than that... As a precaution and until I can unravel that error I have estimated 1850 as the rough date for the Royal hilt ~ I also find it strange that a Dynastic Hilt was designed by a wife of an important Sultan .. when she ran away with another man ! More work needed on this story! At least I have some roughly accurate names and dates to play with.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim