Indian sword blades

Ian · 24th August 2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Being average height 5'8" and wearing a medium glove ; my hand across the palm (not counting the thumb) measures 3 5/8" .

A tulwar hilt fits quite nicely for whatever it's worth .

/oh yes BTW , I'm Anglo Saxon

Individual variation is considerable. I'm of similar height and ethnicity to Rick, but my fist measures 4 1/4 inches cross and I wear an XL glove! Tulwar hilts (and I have a half dozen to try) are extremely uncomfortable and will only accommodate three fingers on the handle. However, an 18th C. firangi with an Indian basket hilt, and a couple of other examples of this hilt, are much more roomy and admit my whole hand comfortably. Why do you think the later hilt style was so much smaller? Is this related to how the swords were used?

Ian.

B.I · 24th August 2005, 09:49 AM

hi ian,
most firangis where made to incorporate a padded interior. some had holes in the guards to tie to, some didnt and the padding tied around the guard with cord. this may explain the difference in size. maybe also firangis were more common in the south, a different tribe/caste.
i know of a collection of tulwars, all made 'over-sized'. my hand (large) easily fits into all. as jens noted, the indians were in general of a smaller size (still are now) with many exceptions. this goes also for antique tulwars - in general small with many exceptions.
i think the size thing has been an on-going debate from generations past ours, and probably will continue as we can only speculate.
the rajputs were a small race (as noted in accounts) and many swords came from rajesthan. annup singh, a rajput maharaja of the 17thC was noted as having a brother of immense size, and most of the larger weapons in the armoury (which still exists) probably belonged to him.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th August 2005, 04:53 PM

Hi Rick and Ian,

I am 72’’ small, I don’t know how many feet that makes, and my hand is 4’’ across, so Ian is right, we come in all sizes (I think it is English inches, but I am not quite sure).

BTW can anyone tell me, why English and American feet, inches are different? It would be easier if everyone on this forum used metres, centimetres and millimetres, then measurers given on the forum would be the same – now one can’t be sure if the measurers given are in English feet, inches or in American, as nothing is noted – just 3’ 4’’ – sigh.

Hi Brian,

You are right these measurers were used in shipbuilding, architecture, bridge building and in a lot of other places, like maybe carpet making, or they would not have been able to say ‘so and so many knots pr finger’. Only here it was not grains, but feet – Indian feet – but the ground structure of this measure must have been grains. It is the first time I have seen grains mentioned when it comes to measures, so it is interesting to see one of their smaller measures being mentioned. It is mentioned that the tip of the index finger should be equivalent to eight grains (2.3-2.5 cm), the problem occurs if a hands width is mentioned/used, as not all the fingers have the same size, or maybe they had a standard for a hand (but if they had, why say fifty fingers, why not say so and so many hands?), like they must have had for a foot. If they had not had measures like that, a building like Taj Mahal would never have been build, nor would all the forts and, and, and…

Rick · 24th August 2005, 08:12 PM

Hi Jens , you are six feet tall ( 6' ) .

In England and America the inch is the same ; 12 inches (symbol " ) make one foot (symbol ' ) .

I have to use a conversion table for meters , centimeters , and millimeters as I suppose you must have to also for feet and inches .

I am by no means any kind of a mathemetician so the whole concept makes my brain melt .

And now we talk of grains of unknown origin and size .

Now I must ask a question ; we are reading from a Muslim manuscript, yes ?

Is this a Muslim translation from a Hindu manuscript or an arbitrary Muslim ideal ?

I find myself further confused by the term 'sword' as a sword is not just a blade alone but incorporates a hilt to make it functional ; so when we talk about this subject of length is it really just the blade or is this just an assumption because nowhere have I seen the term blade used in the original quote .

Addendum :

I did a little googling on Hindu weights and measures :
http://tinyurl.com/bgxxf

Jens Nordlunde · 24th August 2005, 09:41 PM

Hi Rich, you area beaty, and I will read the link to morrow

. Jens

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2005, 04:01 AM

This is, as always with Jens' observations and queries on arms & armour, completely fascinating! and noting the source for this material being Dr. Elgood's brilliant work "Hindu Arms and Ritual" , extremely well expected.
Robert Elgood has approached the study of Indian arms in the long overdue perspective in which they have needed to be viewed, with the understanding of the religious and ethnographic symbolism and belief that explains them.
Until this important work, most of the weapons of India have been viewed as nearly standardized forms such as the tulwar, khanda, katar and so on without any consideration for the decorative elements, motif and auspicious symbolism imbued in these weapons. The many hybrids and innovative variants of weapon forms well known from Indian armouries remain mostly unexplained curiosities which have generated considerable western speculation concerning thier use. It would seem that in many cases, such explanation may lie in symbolism rather than pragmatic application.

Concerning the measurements as presented in the book, and in the outstanding discussion and observations posted on this thread, I would like to add the following, which I found in the book "The Wonder that was India" by Arthur Basham ( London, 1954) on p.503:

8 yava (barleycorns)= 1 angula (fingers breadth, 3/4")
12 angulas = 1 vitasti (span, 9")

I recall some time ago researching the Khevsurs of the remote regions of the Caucusus in Georgia, and Richard Halliburton's observations on his visit to their secluded enclaves in the 1930's ("Seven League Boots"). He describes the popularity among the men of duelling, often as sport, but occasionally very deadly in matters of dispute. In the sporting event the warriors wore mail, helmets and fought with sword and buckler. If one participant was accidentally wounded, the wound was measured with barley seeds, and the compensation to be paid computed to be paid in cows by such measure.
There was considerable trade and contact with northern regions of India from early times, and many influences seem to have diffused from there. Possibly this rather ancient form of measuring was one of them?

In the importance of length and other important features discussed concerning the auspicious significance applied in these important swords, I am wondering how the use of 'phirangi' or foreign trade blades was viewed in them. Would the 'pratistha' ritual described by Elgood on p.105 be considered effective in imbuing the required transubstantiation (some word eh!

) or would these blades
have been considered less than acceptible?

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 25th August 2005, 02:37 PM

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the link, interesting to read about the people living on the subcontinent so many years ago, and about their advanced knowledge.
The book is, as mentioned before, ’Nujum al-‘Ulum’ and here is what Robert Elgood writes about it. ‘This Bijapur manuscript dated 1570 in three places, is a well-written document that considers weapons’ lore, predominately Hindu.’
And a bit later something interesting. ‘Much of the information regarding the casting of horoscopes for the various types of weapons is omitted, being largely repetitious, though the author’s obsessive concern with planetary influences should be noted.’
It is well known that Indian weapons often were decorated with talismanic signs, but it is new to me, that they also made horoscopes for the different kind of weapons.
I think the term ‘sword’, here must refer to the blade without the hilt, but it is not quite clear.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the nice words, and thanks for your research.
It is very interesting that you found this 8 yava (barleycorns)= 1 angula (fingers breadth, 3/4")
12 angulas = 1 vitasti (span, 9"), as we here have both the corns and the finger width, and what more is, it fits very well. ¾ inch by 4 fingers = 3 inch = 7.8 cm. Does it say from where the author Arthur Basham has these information’s?
I have tried to measure some tulwar hilts, and the room for the hand varies from 7 cm to 8 cm. This will give a firm, but not a strained grip.
In the notes to his book Elgood writes: ‘Agba’ (Arabic) = angul (Hindi) = angusht (Persian), all meaning a finger’s width. In south-east Asia the thumb width is used to measure keris blades to decide if they are auspicious.’

24th August 2005, 08:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Jens , you are six feet tall ( 6' ) . In England and America the inch is the same ; 12 inches (symbol " ) make one foot (symbol ' ) . I have to use a conversion table for meters , centimeters , and millimeters as I suppose you must have to also for feet and inches . I am by no means any kind of a mathemetician so the whole concept makes my brain melt . And now we talk of grains of unknown origin and size . Now I must ask a question ; we are reading from a Muslim manuscript, yes ? Is this a Muslim translation from a Hindu manuscript or an arbitrary Muslim ideal ? I find myself further confused by the term 'sword' as a sword is not just a blade alone but incorporates a hilt to make it functional ; so when we talk about this subject of length is it really just the blade or is this just an assumption because nowhere have I seen the term blade used in the original quote . Addendum : I did a little googling on Hindu weights and measures : http://tinyurl.com/bgxxf Last edited by Rick; 24th August 2005 at 08:23 PM.

24th August 2005, 09:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rich, you area beaty, and I will read the link to morrow. Jens

24th August 2005, 09:49 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi ian, most firangis where made to incorporate a padded interior. some had holes in the guards to tie to, some didnt and the padding tied around the guard with cord. this may explain the difference in size. maybe also firangis were more common in the south, a different tribe/caste. i know of a collection of tulwars, all made 'over-sized'. my hand (large) easily fits into all. as jens noted, the indians were in general of a smaller size (still are now) with many exceptions. this goes also for antique tulwars - in general small with many exceptions. i think the size thing has been an on-going debate from generations past ours, and probably will continue as we can only speculate. the rajputs were a small race (as noted in accounts) and many swords came from rajesthan. annup singh, a rajput maharaja of the 17thC was noted as having a brother of immense size, and most of the larger weapons in the armoury (which still exists) probably belonged to him.

24th August 2005, 04:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick and Ian, I am 72’’ small, I don’t know how many feet that makes, and my hand is 4’’ across, so Ian is right, we come in all sizes (I think it is English inches, but I am not quite sure). BTW can anyone tell me, why English and American feet, inches are different? It would be easier if everyone on this forum used metres, centimetres and millimetres, then measurers given on the forum would be the same – now one can’t be sure if the measurers given are in English feet, inches or in American, as nothing is noted – just 3’ 4’’ – sigh. Hi Brian, You are right these measurers were used in shipbuilding, architecture, bridge building and in a lot of other places, like maybe carpet making, or they would not have been able to say ‘so and so many knots pr finger’. Only here it was not grains, but feet – Indian feet – but the ground structure of this measure must have been grains. It is the first time I have seen grains mentioned when it comes to measures, so it is interesting to see one of their smaller measures being mentioned. It is mentioned that the tip of the index finger should be equivalent to eight grains (2.3-2.5 cm), the problem occurs if a hands width is mentioned/used, as not all the fingers have the same size, or maybe they had a standard for a hand (but if they had, why say fifty fingers, why not say so and so many hands?), like they must have had for a foot. If they had not had measures like that, a building like Taj Mahal would never have been build, nor would all the forts and, and, and…

25th August 2005, 04:01 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	This is, as always with Jens' observations and queries on arms & armour, completely fascinating! and noting the source for this material being Dr. Elgood's brilliant work "Hindu Arms and Ritual" , extremely well expected. Robert Elgood has approached the study of Indian arms in the long overdue perspective in which they have needed to be viewed, with the understanding of the religious and ethnographic symbolism and belief that explains them. Until this important work, most of the weapons of India have been viewed as nearly standardized forms such as the tulwar, khanda, katar and so on without any consideration for the decorative elements, motif and auspicious symbolism imbued in these weapons. The many hybrids and innovative variants of weapon forms well known from Indian armouries remain mostly unexplained curiosities which have generated considerable western speculation concerning thier use. It would seem that in many cases, such explanation may lie in symbolism rather than pragmatic application. Concerning the measurements as presented in the book, and in the outstanding discussion and observations posted on this thread, I would like to add the following, which I found in the book "The Wonder that was India" by Arthur Basham ( London, 1954) on p.503: 8 yava (barleycorns)= 1 angula (fingers breadth, 3/4") 12 angulas = 1 vitasti (span, 9") I recall some time ago researching the Khevsurs of the remote regions of the Caucusus in Georgia, and Richard Halliburton's observations on his visit to their secluded enclaves in the 1930's ("Seven League Boots"). He describes the popularity among the men of duelling, often as sport, but occasionally very deadly in matters of dispute. In the sporting event the warriors wore mail, helmets and fought with sword and buckler. If one participant was accidentally wounded, the wound was measured with barley seeds, and the compensation to be paid computed to be paid in cows by such measure. There was considerable trade and contact with northern regions of India from early times, and many influences seem to have diffused from there. Possibly this rather ancient form of measuring was one of them? In the importance of length and other important features discussed concerning the auspicious significance applied in these important swords, I am wondering how the use of 'phirangi' or foreign trade blades was viewed in them. Would the 'pratistha' ritual described by Elgood on p.105 be considered effective in imbuing the required transubstantiation (some word eh! ) or would these blades have been considered less than acceptible? Best regards, Jim

25th August 2005, 02:37 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, Thanks for the link, interesting to read about the people living on the subcontinent so many years ago, and about their advanced knowledge. The book is, as mentioned before, ’Nujum al-‘Ulum’ and here is what Robert Elgood writes about it. ‘This Bijapur manuscript dated 1570 in three places, is a well-written document that considers weapons’ lore, predominately Hindu.’ And a bit later something interesting. ‘Much of the information regarding the casting of horoscopes for the various types of weapons is omitted, being largely repetitious, though the author’s obsessive concern with planetary influences should be noted.’ It is well known that Indian weapons often were decorated with talismanic signs, but it is new to me, that they also made horoscopes for the different kind of weapons. I think the term ‘sword’, here must refer to the blade without the hilt, but it is not quite clear. Hi Jim, Thanks for the nice words, and thanks for your research. It is very interesting that you found this 8 yava (barleycorns)= 1 angula (fingers breadth, 3/4") 12 angulas = 1 vitasti (span, 9"), as we here have both the corns and the finger width, and what more is, it fits very well. ¾ inch by 4 fingers = 3 inch = 7.8 cm. Does it say from where the author Arthur Basham has these information’s? I have tried to measure some tulwar hilts, and the room for the hand varies from 7 cm to 8 cm. This will give a firm, but not a strained grip. In the notes to his book Elgood writes: ‘Agba’ (Arabic) = angul (Hindi) = angusht (Persian), all meaning a finger’s width. In south-east Asia the thumb width is used to measure keris blades to decide if they are auspicious.’