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11th March 2012, 06:56 PM
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#1 | |
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Location: Olomouc
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11th March 2012, 07:22 PM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently.  I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life.  Omani Battle Swords aren't flat.. moreover, they are a peculiar broad wing shape in cross section making them quite powerful weapons actually.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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11th March 2012, 07:26 PM
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#3 | |
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Location: Olomouc
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I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.
So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of... Quote:
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11th March 2012, 08:11 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Iain; Oh yes absolutely...Sayf Yamaani. I was after a few hilt only items as I had some Old hilt parts but incomplete... The hilt is in two halves and often I come across half a hilt and as can be seen in the picture there is a half a hilt so they have the same problem... They had a few spare hilts a few months ago... and one you can see matched onto the triple fuller job... I rang them up following my post on the subject and asked when they did the work ... very recent was the reply. The more I delve into Schiavona blades the more I suspect that blade being a fit for some worked onto Omani long hilts masquerading as dancing swords.. See Schiavona for comments #9 last photo ; at the European forum. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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12th March 2012, 08:33 AM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,192
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This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.
I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan. I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s). I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes: "...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron". It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well. Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility. The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility. It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward. I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected. It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use. It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same. The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case. As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives. All the best, Jim |
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12th March 2012, 09:20 AM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,708
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There are two points I have mentioned before but I think need to be mentioned again.
1. Blade markings - there is no reason for fake running wolves and other European marks to show up on native made Omani saif blades unless European blades were already in circulation in Oman and widely regarded as a benchmark for quality. 2. A shift in blade profile to something remarkably similar to the European trade blades of the era, the sudden use of fullering where previously there was none and patterns such as the triple fullered blades which closely resemble European imports into the Red Sea region, even though most of the blades on Omani saifs are native made. |
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12th March 2012, 10:07 AM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams ~ I have no idea who placed or why the running wolf appears on some blades and not on others. The majority dont have it. Many other blades coming down the red sea have it... and on arrival they have been cross hilted matched onto Omani long hilts. There is the example of the tripple fuller at 228 but as you know this blade isnt Omani..I will try to find out who put the fake stamp on that one...if it was done in Muttrah or it arrived like that. The fullering is a question. It was done to dancing swords thats for sure. In addition late Sayf Yamaani were fullered though early examples not it seems... I cannot draw a link to European blades as yet... neither to the old or new swords (of the type Sayf Yamaani and sayf dancing sword). Research continues. Salaams, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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13th March 2012, 06:43 AM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.
I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan. I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s). I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes: "...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron". It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well. Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility. The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility. It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward. I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected. It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use. It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same. The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case. As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives. All the best, Jim Salaams Jim~ I regret I am a little delayed and behind by a post or two as I am in and out of Buraimi… When first I saw the name Frazer I had to look it up and immediately saw the significance in his name as Clan linked and thought that he must have known the significance of the Claymore as you say. He seems to be the only anecdotal link of substance though I am amazed that in one visit he apparently got down to blade inspections which has a peculiar ring to me and may be over icing on the cake, perhaps, done later? Artistic licence? I have to say that the dancing sword does look warlike (but it is not a weapon) and it could be this that he saw. On the other hand it may have been the Sayf Yamaani. I would say it was certainly one of the two or both. The anecdote is, however, placed well for future reference.. Omani Battle Sword blade. "Sayf Yamaani". Bearing in mind that it is described as designed/introduced in 751 ad and frozen till relatively very recently and even today being Iconized, therefore, many different variations must exist on the blade down the ages... Therefor it is accepted that many blades must have been repaired and replaced at various times and possibly by various makers. The early style had no fullers as technology may not have been there at such an early date... I have swords with no fullers. Some I have seen with fullers which are obviously later models. The Mark 1 style(so to speak) has apparently none. Even in the case of the fullered weapon it is non flexible and would snap after about 25 degrees of bend I suspect. The wing shape across the blade is critical since the middle of the blade is quite thick giving it the ability to chop and slash whilst the point capable of thrust and stab. The German blade flexibility is interesting and I recall the story about the Shotley Bridge master at a sword expo where he had concealed a blade in his top hat such was its flexibility. .. and astounded clients and onlookers when he revealed it. However the Omani dancing blade is not a weapon and I have not yet seen a German blade that I can identify on any I have handled so far. Why would they want to weaponize a pageantry sword? Any sword stamps that I have seen on flexible Omani Dancing Swords have been done locally. I have only seen German stamps on blades that have been brought in and put onto Omani hilts for the tourist market. I have not yet seen a flexible German blade matched to an Omani long hilt and used by Omanis for dancing and have that down to one simple reasoning~ The German sword was a fighting sword, a weapon of war…(if it exists) whilst the Omani dancing sword is a pageantry sword only. I continue to look out for possible German blade replacements for the Old Omani Battle Sword without success… and fear that it could be only a rumour or that it simply was not a successful concept and died out … and vanished ~ Sunk without trace perhaps.. Though I have a hypothesis for the phenomena below. Schiavona ~ I agree on your point about single edges and was about give up, however, on the final picture at my reference on Forum previously posted I also looked at Schiavona Sword Variations #1 on the European ; I noted a double edge Schiavonas which could be a style that has entered the equation… Rather a note on passing than a fixed idea..perhaps worthy of a look. Upon the trade routes I have no questions and accept they were many and varied… What is apparently absolute is that whatever came down the trade route in the shape of a sword the Omanis would be certain to reject a blade not able to buzz in the pageant. I cannot see how these blades if they exist were perhaps then fitted to Sayf Yamaani as an alternative. I can see how they could have been bottled up in some warehouse store in Yemen or Saudia until much later..for rehilting and tourism. I don’t believe the qualities are there inherent in dancing blades to even class them as fighting weapons. Being razor sharp is a red herring. Thin, bendy, not particularly well made and the only specific test being its flexibility ( and round tip) on long hilts.."for dancing and pageants only". Hypothesis. 1. I would be blind however not to notice the plethora of blades with stiffer blades and points emerging on the market. Perhaps these Red Sea Cousins as I call them were intended for the Omani market in say the 19th C and having arrived in Red Sea environs were found to be unsuitable for Omani dancing swords and discarded in a warehouse until some entrepreneurial souk shop owner saw a potential market in foreign tourists? 2.Could it also be possible that these blades were fitted to Omani hilts in the 19th C and plied on the peripheral market around the Red Sea and Zanzibar Hub? Perhaps this would explain the conundrum though I have to say I have absolutely no proof. Slavery was still running at full tilt (and supported by the French) until late in the 19th C so perhaps this was a weapon carried by slaving crews …. What is for certain is that blades are and have been re-hilted in Muttrah Souk Muscat since 1970 (and or other centres) of this nature though I haven’t seen their original condition and what hilts they had if any. Where I consider that confusion has reigned is, in part, because of the terminology since there are of course curved European Blades on Omani and Zanzibari hilts in Shashqa and Nimcha and Karabela forms coined "Kattara" by Omanis. ( naturally the other curved swords of Persian and Hyderabadi and also occasional Damascqi style were also named "Kattara") Notwithstanding this hypothesis; My suspicion remains strongly that these are Red Sea variants; Yemeni or Saudia blades or a mixture of all the possibilities including German being hoisted onto the tourist market as fakes since 1970. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th March 2012 at 07:27 AM. |
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