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9th March 2012, 01:50 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,708
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I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly.
 But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer) http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...-kattara-sword It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso. |
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9th March 2012, 02:30 PM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9. However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords. Thank you for the clear reference and pictures. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th March 2012 at 02:42 PM. |
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9th March 2012, 03:18 PM
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#3 | |
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Location: Olomouc
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Quote:
I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here.  To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade. I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif. By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia. I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all.  I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades. Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts. Cheers, Iain |
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11th March 2012, 09:53 AM
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#4 | |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin. Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted. An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me ! The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it.. Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain. Thank you for your post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th March 2012 at 10:21 AM. |
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11th March 2012, 12:33 PM
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#5 | |
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Hi Ibrahiim,
Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already! ).I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out. Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance. Cheers, Iain Quote:
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11th March 2012, 06:39 PM
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#6 | |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Iain ~ I have the match dates of these weapons at # 228 and 229 from the Muttrah workshop owner and it is about 2000; only 12 years ago... They came as blades from Yemen. They roughly follow the Sayf Yamaani style in one case the centre sword whilst at top the long hilt is Solingen ...and done for a tourist ( I actually know the tourist owner!) The weak lower blade at reference is a possible contender as a replacement for the Omani Battlesword from European sources but is as yet unsubstantiated. At the same time I am aware of the weight of evidence that suggests the European trade Blade influx everywhere from the Museums through to respected volumes on Islamic Swords. It is like looking at UFOs ! Every one of the interloper blades falls short on fact. They are either fitted as tourist weapons as late as last week ! and have come down the red sea and been rehilted often in Muttrah sucking in blades from Yemen and sucking in tourists in the souk ! Having said that; should evidence of a Trade Blade appear I will be the first to publish the fact to forum... as yet ... nothing. Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature on old Khanjars. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the Forum owner would have responded but to no avail as yet. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously. Could it be that Sayf Yamaani = Izki Near Nizwa in the quarter called Yemen and predating Islam by about 400 years with that name. As you know; I view the fighting weapon and the dancing weapon quite differently and it is in the transitional period ( pure guesswork at this point) that things get interesting. Was it 1744 / 1799 the bracket of time in which the Busaidi dynasty took control or before or after? Was it Yaruuba; the previous dynasty? Is it neither and associated only with the Funoon and therefor the Ibaathi seat at Nizwa? When did the Old Battle Sword succumb or give over its possition in the Funoon to the new flexible Sayf wa Ters? At whatever date ... say circa 1750ad for argument sake (though its a guess) the design was approved for a non fighting pageantry sword. The Old Battle sword continued as a weapon but faded on the pageant side being superceded, however, it was adopted as an Iconic dress sword with the royal hilt as at thread...# 211... to date ! We know who instigated the Royal Hilt Khanjar and when so it is likely the two hilts happened together. They are virtually identical. Therefor we have the date of both the Royal Khanjar and the Omani Battle Swords Iconisation. The question arrises on replacement blades on the Omani Battle Swords (Sayf Yamaani) In the biggest collections of these weapons comprising between 20 and 30 weapons each ... there are no thin replacement blades of European nature. Rumour has it that a skinny quite useless blade appeared from Europe (17th C ?)... and this is born out by at least one collector who simply refused to have that type in his collection. I have pictured a peculiar couple of swords in Muscat one of which may be the style being talked about. Some replacement european blades look very meaty and as in the case of your German trade blade seem to fit the bill. As to accuracy/authenticity or if we are being duped?... I caution beware. The answers are still out there... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th March 2012 at 07:14 PM. |
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11th March 2012, 06:56 PM
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#7 | |
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Hybrid Mode
