Luzon Bolo With Wootz Blade!

Lew · 23rd August 2005, 02:05 AM

Hi guys

Well have must disagree with Rsword I had a chance to examine the blade in person and compared it to some of my wootz blades it really is wootz! I have seen piso podangs that have wootz blades why not this blade? Here are some closeups of a wootz kindjal dagger please note where the edge was hardened the loss of pattern it is the same on Ibeams blade.

Lew

Ian · 23rd August 2005, 04:16 AM

Thank you, Ann.

Ian.

RSWORD · 24th August 2005, 01:26 AM

You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating.

Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.

Lew · 24th August 2005, 04:06 AM

Hi Rsword
Good points but just because you never saw a wootz Philippine blade doesn't mean one can't possibly exist I will see if ibeam can lend me the knife to bring up to Ashokan so that Dr. Ann can have a closer look at it. Basically wootz is an ultra high carbon steel and it was mentioned railroad tracks as a source of steel? From my readings they are usually contain .70 carbon wootz's carbon content is over 1 percent I doubt that rail tracks would have such a high carbon content? I will give Al Pendray a buzz and have him take a look at it to see what he thinks it is. The blade in question was only about 3/16" thick so it possible it was reworked or ground from a larger sword?

Regards

Lew

Federico · 24th August 2005, 05:34 AM

Cant tell for sure from the pics, but does the temper line kind of fade off into the tip? If so, that could lend credence to the blade being a re-worked blade, if never re-hardened, and the original pattern/temper left one coudl imagine the such a dissappearance of temper. Then again, as Rsword mentioned, unless the smith was aware of the fact it was wootz, knew how to forge wootz, if he tried forgin an ingot, the pattern would be lost completely as most Philippine forges would be far hotter than what is necessary to maintain the pattern. Though, it would not be unheard of for steel from India, particularly via British ships, to be sold in PI for trade, but then it would be far more common for it to be treated like normal steel, and the wootz pattern lost in the forging process. Itll be interesting to hear what the experts will say once they see it. 5160 can often have some interesting effects when etched.

Ann Feuerbach · 24th August 2005, 08:14 PM

People and blades travel, since the beginning of time. I got 3rd-4th century AD crucible steel blades in the Caucasus, and well as later period ones in the Altai of Siberia, and those were overland travel. It is highly unlikly it was made in the Philippines, but reworked is plausable. Boats and trade have been going on for centuries in these places. Things travel, particularly something like a wootz blade with Indian saliors.

ham · 24th August 2005, 10:22 PM

Gentlemen,

Though it is difficult to say conclusively without handling it, I agree this is wootz-- in fact it is the same sort often found on the best Indian Sosun Pattah blades. Given the form, perhaps that is what this weapon was adapted from.

Sincerely,

Ham

kai · 25th August 2005, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge.

Hi Rsword,

That seems possible. So we need a microscopic examination to get a conclusive answer...

Quote:

By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade.

Thanks! That feat sounds really like dancing on an edge, literally...

Is there anything known about the practices of edge hardening with wootz?

Regards,
Kai

Ferguson · 25th August 2005, 01:18 AM

You know guys, this thread is an example of what makes this forum great. While there is disagreement, it is civil, friendly, kind and sticks to the facts. I salute you all.

Steve Ferguson

Battara · 25th August 2005, 06:12 AM

Hi again folks. First off, here are pics of my gunong and a very detailed closeup of the blade lamination. I must admit, although it resembles wootz, it is not crystaline like wootz. Many Indian blades are not wootz. but I love the close blade lamination of this puppy and this is one of the many reasons that I keep it.

Battara · 25th August 2005, 06:15 AM

Here is a Kurdish jambiya I have for comparison. Notice the difference in structure (though close to the gunong). This is a wootz blade.

23rd August 2005, 02:05 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi guys Well have must disagree with Rsword I had a chance to examine the blade in person and compared it to some of my wootz blades it really is wootz! I have seen piso podangs that have wootz blades why not this blade? Here are some closeups of a wootz kindjal dagger please note where the edge was hardened the loss of pattern it is the same on Ibeams blade. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 23rd August 2005 at 02:21 AM.

25th August 2005, 06:12 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Hi again folks. First off, here are pics of my gunong and a very detailed closeup of the blade lamination. I must admit, although it resembles wootz, it is not crystaline like wootz. Many Indian blades are not wootz. but I love the close blade lamination of this puppy and this is one of the many reasons that I keep it. Attached Images

25th August 2005, 06:15 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Here is a Kurdish jambiya I have for comparison. Notice the difference in structure (though close to the gunong). This is a wootz blade. Attached Images

23rd August 2005, 04:16 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Thank you, Ann. Ian.

24th August 2005, 01:26 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating. Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.

24th August 2005, 04:06 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Rsword Good points but just because you never saw a wootz Philippine blade doesn't mean one can't possibly exist I will see if ibeam can lend me the knife to bring up to Ashokan so that Dr. Ann can have a closer look at it. Basically wootz is an ultra high carbon steel and it was mentioned railroad tracks as a source of steel? From my readings they are usually contain .70 carbon wootz's carbon content is over 1 percent I doubt that rail tracks would have such a high carbon content? I will give Al Pendray a buzz and have him take a look at it to see what he thinks it is. The blade in question was only about 3/16" thick so it possible it was reworked or ground from a larger sword? Regards Lew

24th August 2005, 05:34 AM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Cant tell for sure from the pics, but does the temper line kind of fade off into the tip? If so, that could lend credence to the blade being a re-worked blade, if never re-hardened, and the original pattern/temper left one coudl imagine the such a dissappearance of temper. Then again, as Rsword mentioned, unless the smith was aware of the fact it was wootz, knew how to forge wootz, if he tried forgin an ingot, the pattern would be lost completely as most Philippine forges would be far hotter than what is necessary to maintain the pattern. Though, it would not be unheard of for steel from India, particularly via British ships, to be sold in PI for trade, but then it would be far more common for it to be treated like normal steel, and the wootz pattern lost in the forging process. Itll be interesting to hear what the experts will say once they see it. 5160 can often have some interesting effects when etched.

24th August 2005, 08:14 PM	#6
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	People and blades travel, since the beginning of time. I got 3rd-4th century AD crucible steel blades in the Caucasus, and well as later period ones in the Altai of Siberia, and those were overland travel. It is highly unlikly it was made in the Philippines, but reworked is plausable. Boats and trade have been going on for centuries in these places. Things travel, particularly something like a wootz blade with Indian saliors.

24th August 2005, 10:22 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Though it is difficult to say conclusively without handling it, I agree this is wootz-- in fact it is the same sort often found on the best Indian Sosun Pattah blades. Given the form, perhaps that is what this weapon was adapted from. Sincerely, Ham

25th August 2005, 01:18 AM	#9
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	You know guys, this thread is an example of what makes this forum great. While there is disagreement, it is civil, friendly, kind and sticks to the facts. I salute you all. Steve Ferguson