Luzon Bolo With Wootz Blade!

Ian · 22nd August 2005, 10:17 PM

I think we need the help of Dr Ann for this one (e-mail sent).

Perhaps we are just seeing some unusual crystallization associated with the process for hardening of the edge.

Ian.

Lew · 22nd August 2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I think we need the help of Dr Ann for this one.

Perhaps we are just seeing some unusual crystallization associated with the hardening of the edge.

Ian.

Ian

I emailed Dr. Ann she thinks it could be wootz from southern India?

Lew

Battara · 22nd August 2005, 10:24 PM

Rsword corrected me once in that I thought my gunong was wootz. It looked like it, but was not crystaline. This one looks very similar to mine. If Rsword is around, would like to get his opinoin was well. Maybe I'll post some pics for comparison.

Ann Feuerbach · 22nd August 2005, 10:56 PM

Hi all!
I agree it is difficult to judge from a picture. It either looks like very fine south Indian wootz, or very complicated lamination. The blade shape does look as though it may be from a ground down old sword blade. Stick it under a microscope and see if you can see any spheroidal cementite. I know, easier said than done!
Battara, I did not know you were from Louisville. I was just there to visit the Frazier.

RSWORD · 23rd August 2005, 12:10 AM

It is very difficult to tell from the pictures but I think Ian is right on the money in that this is some unusual crystallization from the heat treatment of the blade. Sometimes old pieces of metal that would be used for making blades, ie very old railroad track, from the years of use when forged out would have an unusually high amount of carbon. I once had a Japanese sword that had a blade that had been forged from railroad steel. The area around the hamon where it had been heat treated had a very wootz-like appearance to it but it was not forged from a wootz ingot but rather the railroad rails which due to age and heavy wear created a high carbon steel. What is wootz steel. A high carbon steel. Much of the steel the Japanese utilized late in the war was old railway rails, much of which was Sheffield steel. Good steel. I have heard of many smiths over the years adding old, well used horse shoes and handmade nails to their forging process which in effect increased the carbon content in the finished product. While it is hard to say for sure in this example, I would say it is very unlikely to have been forged from a wootz ingot or an old wootz blade and more likely has been forged from old steel(maybe some old railway lines if they existed at this time?) and once heat treated the higher carbon content, when polished and etched, will have a wootz like appearance.

Lew · 23rd August 2005, 02:05 AM

Hi guys

Well have must disagree with Rsword I had a chance to examine the blade in person and compared it to some of my wootz blades it really is wootz! I have seen piso podangs that have wootz blades why not this blade? Here are some closeups of a wootz kindjal dagger please note where the edge was hardened the loss of pattern it is the same on Ibeams blade.

Lew

Ian · 23rd August 2005, 04:16 AM

Thank you, Ann.

Ian.

RSWORD · 24th August 2005, 01:26 AM

You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating.

Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.

kai · 25th August 2005, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I once had a Japanese sword that had a blade that had been forged from railroad steel. The area around the hamon where it had been heat treated had a very wootz-like appearance to it but it was not forged from a wootz ingot but rather the railroad rails which due to age and heavy wear created a high carbon steel.

Hi Rsword,

How extensive was this area? In the current example the wootz-like pattern extends well towards the back of the blade (cp. the manipulated pic above) and I have a hard time to imagine that this could be achieved by merely heat-treating the edge. However, I've been wrong before...

Regards,
Kai

stevomiller · 21st September 2005, 05:32 AM

Normally I do not get involved in such things, and prefer to just look at the pretty pictures and dream of the things that I wish were mine

, BUT......

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It is very difficult to tell from the pictures but I think Ian is right on the money in that this is some unusual crystallization from the heat treatment of the blade. Sometimes old pieces of metal that would be used for making blades, ie very old railroad track, from the years of use when forged out would have an unusually high amount of carbon......but rather the railroad rails which due to age and heavy wear created a high carbon steel. What is wootz steel. A high carbon steel....many smiths over the years adding old, well used horse shoes and handmade nails to their forging process which in effect increased the carbon content in the finished product.

Unfortunately, this is not how it works. The carbon content of steel does not increase due to workhardening or wear, even with something as big and heavy as a locomotive beating on it. Also, most old horse shoes were made of wrought iron or low carbon steel. Yes, rairoad rails can be used many times for making tools and knives because they are usually of sufficient carbon to be hardened, but not always.

However, you are correct in stating that you can often times find interesting patterns in high carbon steels that are neither pattern welded nor wootz type steels.

Sincerely,
Steve

Ian · 22nd September 2005, 12:57 AM

Just to summarize the thoughts here for my own clarity. I think Lew has presented an intriguing piece for discussion, but we have no firm evidence that this blade is true wootz, as might have come from India about 200 years ago. Rather this blade appears to be an unusal laminated construction, perhaps with some odd crystallization in places.

Ian.

Battara · 22nd September 2005, 05:37 AM

Well summerized Ian.

23rd August 2005, 02:05 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi guys Well have must disagree with Rsword I had a chance to examine the blade in person and compared it to some of my wootz blades it really is wootz! I have seen piso podangs that have wootz blades why not this blade? Here are some closeups of a wootz kindjal dagger please note where the edge was hardened the loss of pattern it is the same on Ibeams blade. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 23rd August 2005 at 02:21 AM.

22nd August 2005, 10:17 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	I think we need the help of Dr Ann for this one (e-mail sent). Perhaps we are just seeing some unusual crystallization associated with the process for hardening of the edge. Ian.

22nd August 2005, 10:24 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Rsword corrected me once in that I thought my gunong was wootz. It looked like it, but was not crystaline. This one looks very similar to mine. If Rsword is around, would like to get his opinoin was well. Maybe I'll post some pics for comparison.

22nd August 2005, 10:56 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi all! I agree it is difficult to judge from a picture. It either looks like very fine south Indian wootz, or very complicated lamination. The blade shape does look as though it may be from a ground down old sword blade. Stick it under a microscope and see if you can see any spheroidal cementite. I know, easier said than done! Battara, I did not know you were from Louisville. I was just there to visit the Frazier.

23rd August 2005, 12:10 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	It is very difficult to tell from the pictures but I think Ian is right on the money in that this is some unusual crystallization from the heat treatment of the blade. Sometimes old pieces of metal that would be used for making blades, ie very old railroad track, from the years of use when forged out would have an unusually high amount of carbon. I once had a Japanese sword that had a blade that had been forged from railroad steel. The area around the hamon where it had been heat treated had a very wootz-like appearance to it but it was not forged from a wootz ingot but rather the railroad rails which due to age and heavy wear created a high carbon steel. What is wootz steel. A high carbon steel. Much of the steel the Japanese utilized late in the war was old railway rails, much of which was Sheffield steel. Good steel. I have heard of many smiths over the years adding old, well used horse shoes and handmade nails to their forging process which in effect increased the carbon content in the finished product. While it is hard to say for sure in this example, I would say it is very unlikely to have been forged from a wootz ingot or an old wootz blade and more likely has been forged from old steel(maybe some old railway lines if they existed at this time?) and once heat treated the higher carbon content, when polished and etched, will have a wootz like appearance.

23rd August 2005, 04:16 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Thank you, Ann. Ian.

24th August 2005, 01:26 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating. Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.

22nd September 2005, 12:57 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Just to summarize the thoughts here for my own clarity. I think Lew has presented an intriguing piece for discussion, but we have no firm evidence that this blade is true wootz, as might have come from India about 200 years ago. Rather this blade appears to be an unusal laminated construction, perhaps with some odd crystallization in places. Ian.

22nd September 2005, 05:37 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Well summerized Ian.