talking to an old PI soldier

jmings · 22nd August 2005, 05:33 PM

On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.

Battara · 22nd August 2005, 10:12 PM

I think part of what we are missing is how the kris was used. It was NOT a stabbing weapon. Most Filipino martial arts I know (including Moro) almost never used stabbing or thrusts with swords (some exception being northern Filipno martials arts influenced by espada y daga, which used rapier and dagger basically). They used slashing or chopping motions. This is even reflected in escrimia, arnis, kalis, silat, etc. in the way the stick is used - chop or slash. Stabbing motions were left to smaller arms, like the gunong, and later the balisong, etc. The kris is and was generally longer than the barong and, although the barong had a reputation to sever an arm or neck, it needed shorter range than the kris and especially the kampilan. Don't forget, as one eBay dealer put once, "the Moros liked to keep their swords "feakshly sharp!" I can still see evidence of slash marks on the horn plates on my Moro armour. This is also why you don't see Moro kris with sharp, pointy tipped blades (one exception being a Maguindanao ceremonial kris I had once that now Spunjer owns

). Slashing and chopping (especially slashing) was the key, NOT stabbing. On a more personal note, I once tried to wield some of my kris in northern escrima fashion with stabbing motions and they don't work very well. However, using them in slashing, whirling, twirling fashions as in sinawali ("weaving" - using two sticks in motion together) works wonderfully (provided you are not sloppy and cut a leg, which I did once during a demonstration when I had carpel tunnel syndrom in one hand -

. I guess you can say I was a real cut up that night

). Live and learn (and wear thick pants?

).

zamboanga · 23rd August 2005, 08:33 AM

Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military.

In fact, video tapes of several beheadings were distributed in 2002 to media and the general population. of course what was eventually shown on TV were edited/blurred scenes of decapitations. but clearly barongs where used on these occasions. the western media described the barongs as "machetes."

zamboanga · 23rd August 2005, 09:05 AM

When then President Marcos declared Martial Law in 1972 one of the laws he promulgated was Presidential Decree No. 9, which, among others, states:

"3. It is unlawful to carry outside of residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "fanknife," "spear," "dagger," "bolo," "balisong," "barong,"
"kris," or club, except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood and while being sued in connection therewith; and any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment ranging from five to ten years as a Military Court/Tribunal/Commission may direct."

This law and martial law in general brought about a dearth in the blade industry in southern philippines at that time. It was not that the kris and barongs became passe after 1970. Bladesmiths simply stopped making them.

When the mid-70s came, Filipino ingenuity made the screw driver a favorite weapon for self-defense - as it comes with a handy excuse for carrying it outside one's residence.

PD no. 9 was later revised over time but was not competely repealed.

Spunjer · 23rd August 2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military.

funny you mentioned that. last time i was there looking for a kris or a barung via word of mouth, i noticed that those that are na nakapatay (been used to kill someone) are highly sought and thus, pricier; so evidently it still being used...

interesting thread so far.

zamboanga · 24th August 2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

funny you mentioned that. last time i was there looking for a kris or a barung via word of mouth, i noticed that those that are na nakapatay (been used to kill someone) are highly sought and thus, pricier; so evidently it still being used...

That is if they are willing to part with it...

in my experience they usually don't no matter the price...

here is a link about the beheadings captured on video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1829211.stm

Federico · 24th August 2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

That is if they are willing to part with it...

in my experience they usually don't no matter the price...

here is a link about the beheadings captured on video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1829211.stm

Thanks for the link, I remember watching that footage on the Filipino channel a few years back when my father was alive. I believe this was after shortly after the capture of a school by Abu Sayaff, and when they holed up in a hospital to be surrounded by Philippine troops in APCs, to only escape from the back (since somehow the troops didnt feel that they would be able to safely guard the back).

As for cut vs stab, another thing to throw in is targetting, targetting, targetting. What is the attacker targetting with his cut or stab. I would be more worried about a cut at my femoral artery than a stab to a large muscle mass such as my outside thigh, and vise versa, a stab to the jugular would be far more dangerous than a lateral slash to the bicep (which would even be a stopping cut as it would not properly sever the connecting tissue). Then there is the whole, what is the fine line between a cut vs stab. If I stab someone, and then proceed to cut out that stab, is it still a stab or a cut (make sense?).

MABAGANI · 24th August 2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

When the mid-70s came, Filipino ingenuity made the screw driver a favorite weapon for self-defense - as it comes with a handy excuse for carrying it outside one's residence.

and the feared tool of choice...the icepick

Federico · 25th August 2005, 12:11 AM

Even before bans on swords, improvised weapons have always been popular in PI. I remember many gruesome stories my dad used to tell me about modified forks, 2x2s, and slingshots. The stories were alwas fascinating, particularly as he would explain why he had certain scars. Now this was in the more peaceful days of the 50s/60s

zamboanga · 25th August 2005, 04:47 AM

This is from the web.

22nd August 2005, 05:33 PM	#1
jmings Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tebbetts, Missouri, USA Posts: 49	Cut & Thrust On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.

25th August 2005, 04:47 AM	#10
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	This is from the web. Attached Images

22nd August 2005, 10:12 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I think part of what we are missing is how the kris was used. It was NOT a stabbing weapon. Most Filipino martial arts I know (including Moro) almost never used stabbing or thrusts with swords (some exception being northern Filipno martials arts influenced by espada y daga, which used rapier and dagger basically). They used slashing or chopping motions. This is even reflected in escrimia, arnis, kalis, silat, etc. in the way the stick is used - chop or slash. Stabbing motions were left to smaller arms, like the gunong, and later the balisong, etc. The kris is and was generally longer than the barong and, although the barong had a reputation to sever an arm or neck, it needed shorter range than the kris and especially the kampilan. Don't forget, as one eBay dealer put once, "the Moros liked to keep their swords "feakshly sharp!" I can still see evidence of slash marks on the horn plates on my Moro armour. This is also why you don't see Moro kris with sharp, pointy tipped blades (one exception being a Maguindanao ceremonial kris I had once that now Spunjer owns ). Slashing and chopping (especially slashing) was the key, NOT stabbing. On a more personal note, I once tried to wield some of my kris in northern escrima fashion with stabbing motions and they don't work very well. However, using them in slashing, whirling, twirling fashions as in sinawali ("weaving" - using two sticks in motion together) works wonderfully (provided you are not sloppy and cut a leg, which I did once during a demonstration when I had carpel tunnel syndrom in one hand - . I guess you can say I was a real cut up that night ). Live and learn (and wear thick pants? ).

23rd August 2005, 08:33 AM	#3
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military. In fact, video tapes of several beheadings were distributed in 2002 to media and the general population. of course what was eventually shown on TV were edited/blurred scenes of decapitations. but clearly barongs where used on these occasions. the western media described the barongs as "machetes."

23rd August 2005, 09:05 AM	#4
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	When then President Marcos declared Martial Law in 1972 one of the laws he promulgated was Presidential Decree No. 9, which, among others, states: "3. It is unlawful to carry outside of residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "fanknife," "spear," "dagger," "bolo," "balisong," "barong," "kris," or club, except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood and while being sued in connection therewith; and any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment ranging from five to ten years as a Military Court/Tribunal/Commission may direct." This law and martial law in general brought about a dearth in the blade industry in southern philippines at that time. It was not that the kris and barongs became passe after 1970. Bladesmiths simply stopped making them. When the mid-70s came, Filipino ingenuity made the screw driver a favorite weapon for self-defense - as it comes with a handy excuse for carrying it outside one's residence. PD no. 9 was later revised over time but was not competely repealed.

25th August 2005, 12:11 AM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Even before bans on swords, improvised weapons have always been popular in PI. I remember many gruesome stories my dad used to tell me about modified forks, 2x2s, and slingshots. The stories were alwas fascinating, particularly as he would explain why he had certain scars. Now this was in the more peaceful days of the 50s/60s