talking to an old PI soldier

Federico · 22nd August 2005, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

who served in the Southern Philippines from 1950-83. A few interesting things. The use of swords, spears, & bow/arrow against government soldiers was common untill 1970, then groups that opposed the gov. were funded & supplied from outside the PI, & the groups went from "primitive" weapons to superior weapons almost overnight. The interesting thing is that this fellow states it was easier to fight the better armed groups, as earlier ambushes were always well planned, & a quick retreat into boobytraps for the gov. soldiers. Better armed, opposition groups, became over confident, & stood thier ground; often to the avantage of the better trained soldiers. Typical of attacks, earlier in his career, were single archers hidding in trees, or groups that would have the high ground & shoot high into the air, so that the arrows would be coming staight down. Krismen often would wait in tall grass, & were quite feared, the wounds from the kris were always fatal, he states. He gave me many examples of the kris attacks & the damage done, as he said, the body never stops the blade. As to the barung, I was surprised, his opinion was that it was not as deadly as the kris. He stated he never saw a man survive a kris wound, but did see men survive barung wounds.

Ok, in the early 50s you have the Kamlon uprising, my Uncle served and was killed in that one. But before the MNLF start in the late 60s, what was the PI army doing down there? From all Ive heard after the Kamlon event (from people living in the area, books, etc...), til the MNLF times and uprisings down there were some of the most peaceful in the region in centuries (well as peaceful as it ever gets down there aside from general political terrorism against civilians, blood feuds, and crime). At least in terms of involvement of the army. Was this guy speaking of general fighting/feuds? Kamlon used guns, and there are many people who attest that after WWII guns were quite common in the area. Im sure people still used kris and barong for whatever personal reasons, but I havent heard the bow being common?

zamboanga · 22nd August 2005, 11:38 AM

Hi Bill,

Would be interested to know where your friend was stationed at that time - Jolo or mainland mindanao?

I too am not familiar with the bow and arrow being of common use at that time, at least from Zambasulta's recent history.

Bill · 22nd August 2005, 04:35 PM

I was very surprised to hear of the use of bow & arrow in fighting, I tried to be very specific, & his first hand experiences were, that it was the most common attack on gov. troops through out the South (50's&60's). Also he was very clear that ambushes with firearms were not that common untill 1970. I will try & re-confirm both, but think the results will be the same. He also told me that troops taken prisioners were always beheaded, that a man wounded by the kris could no longer fight, could not be left behind or moved, there was little to be done for him untill he passed; but a man shot, often, could still fight & as well, travel.

Bill · 22nd August 2005, 04:57 PM

Just ran accross this: http://www.moroinfo.com/ch6_annexati...suloprint.html , know there is some real sensitive subjects here, not trying to raise any, but do find it interesting that the kris was still used against a trained military up to 1970.

jmings · 22nd August 2005, 05:33 PM

On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.

Battara · 22nd August 2005, 10:12 PM

I think part of what we are missing is how the kris was used. It was NOT a stabbing weapon. Most Filipino martial arts I know (including Moro) almost never used stabbing or thrusts with swords (some exception being northern Filipno martials arts influenced by espada y daga, which used rapier and dagger basically). They used slashing or chopping motions. This is even reflected in escrimia, arnis, kalis, silat, etc. in the way the stick is used - chop or slash. Stabbing motions were left to smaller arms, like the gunong, and later the balisong, etc. The kris is and was generally longer than the barong and, although the barong had a reputation to sever an arm or neck, it needed shorter range than the kris and especially the kampilan. Don't forget, as one eBay dealer put once, "the Moros liked to keep their swords "feakshly sharp!" I can still see evidence of slash marks on the horn plates on my Moro armour. This is also why you don't see Moro kris with sharp, pointy tipped blades (one exception being a Maguindanao ceremonial kris I had once that now Spunjer owns

). Slashing and chopping (especially slashing) was the key, NOT stabbing. On a more personal note, I once tried to wield some of my kris in northern escrima fashion with stabbing motions and they don't work very well. However, using them in slashing, whirling, twirling fashions as in sinawali ("weaving" - using two sticks in motion together) works wonderfully (provided you are not sloppy and cut a leg, which I did once during a demonstration when I had carpel tunnel syndrom in one hand -

. I guess you can say I was a real cut up that night

). Live and learn (and wear thick pants?

).

zamboanga · 23rd August 2005, 08:33 AM

Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military.

In fact, video tapes of several beheadings were distributed in 2002 to media and the general population. of course what was eventually shown on TV were edited/blurred scenes of decapitations. but clearly barongs where used on these occasions. the western media described the barongs as "machetes."

22nd August 2005, 05:33 PM	#5
jmings Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tebbetts, Missouri, USA Posts: 49	Cut & Thrust On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.

22nd August 2005, 11:38 AM	#2
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Hi Bill, Would be interested to know where your friend was stationed at that time - Jolo or mainland mindanao? I too am not familiar with the bow and arrow being of common use at that time, at least from Zambasulta's recent history.

22nd August 2005, 04:35 PM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I was very surprised to hear of the use of bow & arrow in fighting, I tried to be very specific, & his first hand experiences were, that it was the most common attack on gov. troops through out the South (50's&60's). Also he was very clear that ambushes with firearms were not that common untill 1970. I will try & re-confirm both, but think the results will be the same. He also told me that troops taken prisioners were always beheaded, that a man wounded by the kris could no longer fight, could not be left behind or moved, there was little to be done for him untill he passed; but a man shot, often, could still fight & as well, travel.

22nd August 2005, 04:57 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Just ran accross this: http://www.moroinfo.com/ch6_annexati...suloprint.html , know there is some real sensitive subjects here, not trying to raise any, but do find it interesting that the kris was still used against a trained military up to 1970.

22nd August 2005, 10:12 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I think part of what we are missing is how the kris was used. It was NOT a stabbing weapon. Most Filipino martial arts I know (including Moro) almost never used stabbing or thrusts with swords (some exception being northern Filipno martials arts influenced by espada y daga, which used rapier and dagger basically). They used slashing or chopping motions. This is even reflected in escrimia, arnis, kalis, silat, etc. in the way the stick is used - chop or slash. Stabbing motions were left to smaller arms, like the gunong, and later the balisong, etc. The kris is and was generally longer than the barong and, although the barong had a reputation to sever an arm or neck, it needed shorter range than the kris and especially the kampilan. Don't forget, as one eBay dealer put once, "the Moros liked to keep their swords "feakshly sharp!" I can still see evidence of slash marks on the horn plates on my Moro armour. This is also why you don't see Moro kris with sharp, pointy tipped blades (one exception being a Maguindanao ceremonial kris I had once that now Spunjer owns ). Slashing and chopping (especially slashing) was the key, NOT stabbing. On a more personal note, I once tried to wield some of my kris in northern escrima fashion with stabbing motions and they don't work very well. However, using them in slashing, whirling, twirling fashions as in sinawali ("weaving" - using two sticks in motion together) works wonderfully (provided you are not sloppy and cut a leg, which I did once during a demonstration when I had carpel tunnel syndrom in one hand - . I guess you can say I was a real cut up that night ). Live and learn (and wear thick pants? ).

23rd August 2005, 08:33 AM	#7
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Even today, krises and barungs are still being carried and used against the Philippine military. In fact, video tapes of several beheadings were distributed in 2002 to media and the general population. of course what was eventually shown on TV were edited/blurred scenes of decapitations. but clearly barongs where used on these occasions. the western media described the barongs as "machetes."