Research on a fine medieval German mail shirt.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

The other aspect is, that the rings are so weak, that this mail shirt could never have been used for fighting. It must be a splendor-shirt, used only
for celebration activities. The smaller the rings, the higher the number of rings, the higher the price, the higher the rank of its owner. Therefore it
is unlikely that it was captured during fighting. It was surely booty from the armoury of a nobleman of high rank.

there is a special group of swords known, type XVIIIC swords, all originating from the alexandria arsenal !!!(probably brought there from Italy).
(the otomans have acquired the vast corpus of these Alexandria swords after their conquest of Egypt in 1517 and maybe robed it together with the above mail with the Tamga mark.)
These swords have a strong tappering blade of very flat diamond section with rounded mid rib and very sharp point but the point is too thin for stabbing. (differently to the castillon Hoard swords fe).
On the other hand, this blade design is one of the most effective cutting blades ever made for (medieval) swords.
A fine ringed mail like above can offfer a perfect protection against this type of slicing swords.

best,

[Swordfish]

You are surely right, that generally more smaller rings are a better protection against a cutting sword. But this is only right if the rings have the same wire diameter as larger rings. But such small rings like the ones posted above must have and have a smaller wire diameter. The last sample has only a wire diameter of 0.6 mm, compared with a wire diameter of 1.2-1.6 mm for a usual mail shirt. But the weakest area of a riveted ring is not the ring itself, it is the rivet. I was not able to measure the diameter of the rivet, but I assume that the diameter is no more than c. 0.3-0.5 mm in a wire of 0.6 mm (a paper-clip has a wire diam. of 0.8 mm!), although the wire is flattened at the area of the rivet. Therefore such mail shirts are extremely fragile against damage, which I have seen on my own mail shirt. Therefore I am sure that such mail shirts could never have been used for figting.

Best

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

You are surely right, that generally more smaller rings are a better protection against a cutting sword. But this is only right if the rings have the same wire diameter as larger rings. But such small rings like the ones posted above must have and have a smaller wire diameter. The last sample has only a wire diameter of 0.6 mm, compared with a wire diameter of 1.2-1.6 mm for a usual mail shirt. But the weakest area of a riveted ring is not the ring itself, it is the rivet. I was not able to measure the diameter of the rivet, but I assume that the diameter is no more than c. 0.3-0.5 mm in a wire of 0.6 mm (a paper-clip has a wire diam. of 0.8 mm!), although the wire is flattened at the area of the rivet. Therefore such mail shirts are extremely fragile against damage, which I have seen on my own mail shirt. Therefore I am sure that such mail shirts could never have been used for figting.

Best

by a blow or cut with a sword, the sword energy is divided over a lot of rings , also the density in the mail with smaller rings is much higher.
Therefor these rings don't need to be as thick in cross-section, compared with the rings having a larger diameter


example: a butcher's glove with even smaller rings offers protection against a butcher's cleaver!

Every theory is fine with me but i do think that this 6kg mail has had more function than just status.

best,

[Swordfish]

I`m sorry to contradict you completely. The comparison with a butcher`glove is not reasonable. A butcher`s glove must have small rings to get the feel and mobility of the fingers. A butcher`s glove must must protect only against the cut with a sharp knife and against the penetration of the tip of the knife. Therefore a small ring with a thin wire is necessary and sufficient. But this is completely different than a heavy blow with a sword blade, which has a multiple of energy.
The shirt is of the second half of the 15th century, probably from the last quarter. Every wealthy knight will have worn at this time at least a breast-plate to protect the breast. Why then wear an extremely expensive mail shirt? Only to protect the upper arms?
Such small rings certainly offer protection only against a light blow of a sword. But that is not the point. As already mentioned, the weakest area of such small rings is the rivetting. In the field a mail shirt is worn all day. Any contact with a sharp edge would tear a hole in the shirt. After several weeks, the shirt would be torn. If you compare in reality such a small ring with a ring of a strong fighting shirt, you will comprehend immediately the difference.
I have attached two photos. The first shows strong rings of a short fighting shirt of good quality, with short sleeves, dating c. 1500. The weight of this shirt is 8 kg, it is constructed of c. 22.000 rings with a diam. of c.9.5 mm and a wire diam. of 1.5 mm. The rivet has a diam. of 0.85 mm.
The second photo shows two rings, one from this shirt and another from the Arsenal shirt for comparison. The outside diameter and the wire diameter is ab. the half, how thin must than be the diameter of the rivet? The weight of the small ring is only 1/7 of the strong ring. Such rings could never have sufficient strength for a mail shirt suitable for fighting.

Best

[cornelistromp]

I respect your opinion of course and perhaps the example of the butcher's glove is not well chosen.

I have a side-note, in the middle east in the 15thC were the opponents mainly lightly armored. Most probably because it was unbearably to wear heavy protection in the (literal) heat of battle. The frequent occurrence of cutting swords coming from the alexandria arsenal point in this direction.

Probably the light maile, on its own, offers not enough protection however it can be that a light maile worn in combination with an aketons/gambesons or the middle-eastern kazaghand would have given adequate protection against heavy blows of a cutting sword.

The maile is worn below or above these multilayered clothing.

(Picures are from Nathan Robinson)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... Probably the light maile, on its own, offers not enough protection however it can be that a light maile worn in combination with an aketons/gambesons or the middle-eastern kazaghand would have given adequate protection against heavy blows of a cutting sword.
The maile is worn below or above these multilayered clothing. ...

Ah, the gambeson. A bit off topic, but allow me to post here the gambeson worn by King Dom João I in the battle of Aljubarrota (14th August 1385).
This is one of the rarest medieval military vests existing today in the world. Made of flax, wool (cushion), silk and gold thread.
One of the pictures shows the actual example presently exhibited in a local museum and the other shows how the experts figured it should have been when brand new.

.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

magnificent specimen. thanks for posting.

best,
Jasper