BLUNDERBUSS FROM YORK MAIL

Fernando K · 22nd February 2012, 07:26 PM

Hola, Cerjak:

Tengo mas dudas que certezas.....Me parece que es una falsificación, o al menos, un trabuco al que se le ha agregado leyendas. YORK MAIL está punzonado con punzones completos,(cada letra) cuando lo habitual era que se fuera armando con punzones simples. Lo mismo para la inscripción HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, cuando lo habitual era HAPPY HE HE ESCAPES ME. El punzón que imita al punzón del Banco de Pruebas (London o Birmingham) no creo que perteneciera a un arma oficial, de la corona....

Es solo una opinión

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Cerjak:

I have more doubts than certainties ..... I think it's a fake, or at least, a blunderbuss where inscriptions were added. YORK MAIL is stamped with loose punctions when it was usual to engrave continuous lettering. Same for the inscription HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, contrary to the usual HAPPY HE ESCAPES ME. The punction that imitates the Proof house marks (London or Birmingham), i do not think it belonged to an official crown gun ....

It's just an opinion

Affectionately. Fernando K

fernando · 22nd February 2012, 07:56 PM

... And i am no linguist but, i guess it should be either His Majesty or Their Majesties, right ?

Probably the phrase was not written by an english speaking person ?

A nice blunderbuss, in any case

fernando · 22nd February 2012, 07:57 PM

... And the lock doesn't have the slightest mark

Cerjak · 22nd February 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... And i am no linguist but, i guess it should be either His Majesty or Their Majesties, right ?

Probably the phrase was not written by an english speaking person ?

A nice blunderbuss, in any case

Fernando see this link his majesties seems to be a correct english or was a correct expression long time ago
http://www.lukehistory.com/resources/yorkdec.html
Regards
Cerjak

Cerjak · 22nd February 2012, 10:23 PM

http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitize...t/reasons.html

fernando · 22nd February 2012, 10:45 PM

Yes, you are right.
It is old english for the possessive case; in the new morphology the ' replaced the e.

spiral · 22nd February 2012, 11:17 PM

Interesting piece Fernando, The font used on the end of the muzle, bieng totaly sans serif dates post late 1870s when it first started to be used, as far as my observations have taken me. {other than on fake markings of course.} {But such font was still rare untill the 20th century.}.}

The "perhaps" older font used on top of the barrel is clearly done with individual stamps,

i have no evidence otherwise for york mail but as the average wood worker could afford stamps cut by an engineer of there entire name, I suspect York Mail could as well. {Especialy as many such stamps were actualy made in Sheffield, Yorkshire.}

I vote XXI century For the markings, I am not capable of dating the piece itself.

Spiral

kahnjar1 · 23rd February 2012, 12:48 AM

A very nice and interesting piece, BUT those marks bother me. IF it is truely an English piece then it SHOULD BY LAW have English Proof marks unless it was made prior to 1630ish. The official Proof House was established around then and official marks started to appear.
The marks on this Blunderbus are not English IMHO unless they are some sort or local Armorers mark. Also it is unusual for the lock not to be marked.
Have you given any thought to this not being YORK UK, but (New)York USA? Don't forget that the Brits held sway there until 1776,and would no doubt have run some sort of mail service to their troops. British Proof laws did not (and still don't) have any meaning in the US.
Hopefully someone can identify the marks as I for one would like to know more about this piece.
As an aftertought, have you checked UNDER the barrel for marks? If you can safely remove it, then it might possibly give up some secrets. The other thing which concerns me a bit is the relatively unblemished lock. A look at the inside of that might also give up some secrets.
Regards Stuart.

laEspadaAncha · 24th February 2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting piece Fernando, The font used on the end of the muzle, bieng totaly sans serif dates post late 1870s when it first started to be used, as far as my observations have taken me. {other than on fake markings of course.}

FWIW, I've seen examples of English-made knives dating to 1850-1860 with stamps using sans serif fonts (and have at least one I can think of), and have seen a file conversion with a similar stamp I would date a little earlier to ca. 1830.

Not that it makes that big of a difference, though I guess it would move a hypothetical window for the origin of the stamps a little closer to the age of the gun...

22nd February 2012, 07:26 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola, Cerjak: Tengo mas dudas que certezas.....Me parece que es una falsificación, o al menos, un trabuco al que se le ha agregado leyendas. YORK MAIL está punzonado con punzones completos,(cada letra) cuando lo habitual era que se fuera armando con punzones simples. Lo mismo para la inscripción HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, cuando lo habitual era HAPPY HE HE ESCAPES ME. El punzón que imita al punzón del Banco de Pruebas (London o Birmingham) no creo que perteneciera a un arma oficial, de la corona.... Es solo una opinión Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, Cerjak: I have more doubts than certainties ..... I think it's a fake, or at least, a blunderbuss where inscriptions were added. YORK MAIL is stamped with loose punctions when it was usual to engrave continuous lettering. Same for the inscription HIS MAJESTIES MAIL, contrary to the usual HAPPY HE ESCAPES ME. The punction that imitates the Proof house marks (London or Birmingham), i do not think it belonged to an official crown gun .... It's just an opinion Affectionately. Fernando K Last edited by fernando; 22nd February 2012 at 07:50 PM.

22nd February 2012, 10:23 PM	#5
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	See this other link it is old English ? http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitize...t/reasons.html

23rd February 2012, 12:48 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	A very nice and interesting piece, BUT those marks bother me. IF it is truely an English piece then it SHOULD BY LAW have English Proof marks unless it was made prior to 1630ish. The official Proof House was established around then and official marks started to appear. The marks on this Blunderbus are not English IMHO unless they are some sort or local Armorers mark. Also it is unusual for the lock not to be marked. Have you given any thought to this not being YORK UK, but (New)York USA? Don't forget that the Brits held sway there until 1776,and would no doubt have run some sort of mail service to their troops. British Proof laws did not (and still don't) have any meaning in the US. Hopefully someone can identify the marks as I for one would like to know more about this piece. As an aftertought, have you checked UNDER the barrel for marks? If you can safely remove it, then it might possibly give up some secrets. The other thing which concerns me a bit is the relatively unblemished lock. A look at the inside of that might also give up some secrets. Regards Stuart. Last edited by kahnjar1; 23rd February 2012 at 04:07 AM.

22nd February 2012, 07:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And i am no linguist but, i guess it should be either His Majesty or Their Majesties, right ? Probably the phrase was not written by an english speaking person ? A nice blunderbuss, in any case

22nd February 2012, 07:57 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And the lock doesn't have the slightest mark

22nd February 2012, 10:45 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes, you are right. It is old english for the possessive case; in the new morphology the ' replaced the e.

22nd February 2012, 11:17 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting piece Fernando, The font used on the end of the muzle, bieng totaly sans serif dates post late 1870s when it first started to be used, as far as my observations have taken me. {other than on fake markings of course.} {But such font was still rare untill the 20th century.}.} The "perhaps" older font used on top of the barrel is clearly done with individual stamps, i have no evidence otherwise for york mail but as the average wood worker could afford stamps cut by an engineer of there entire name, I suspect York Mail could as well. {Especialy as many such stamps were actualy made in Sheffield, Yorkshire.} I vote XXI century For the markings, I am not capable of dating the piece itself. Spiral