small knife/dagger from India

Montino Bourbon · 22nd February 2012, 12:23 PM

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

Atlantia · 22nd February 2012, 02:07 PM

Hi Montino,

I would say that the trend is staring to change in India from out and out reproductions towards rebuilds and restorations to maximise the value of 'old pieces' as collectors demand the genuine article.
I would say that the knife you have bought falls into that category.
I could be wrong as I am basing my thoughts on just the pictures of course, but it looks to me to have been recently polished/etched and I would suspect that the hilt slabs are new.

However, that said it looks to have been done very well and unlike many I see, it wasn't a project that started with a very poor worn blade.
Overall a rather nice thing.

Best
Gene

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year.

That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself.

There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon....

I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum.

Montino

Salaams Ya Ustad Montino Bourbon! Please take care with hot vinegar as it is agressive and I always treat it like a dangerous acid from the safety handling viewpoint and from the effect on the blade... you will have to watch how long it soaks. Its a trial and error and needs to be watched. Please combine this with what is noted on forum library on etching. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David R · 22nd February 2012, 10:29 PM

A gentleman on another forum swears by pineapple juice to bring out the pattern, and I have had decent results in the past from worcester sauce.

Lew · 23rd February 2012, 04:19 AM

A weak solution of ferric chloride 3 parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride should do the trick you can either dip into the solution directly for 30 seconds or apply even coats until the desired effect is reached but be careful not to over etch it. Rinse with warm water to neutralize the solution dry and apply a drop of mineral oil to the blade.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd February 2012, 03:46 PM

I've been coming to this forum for years, and it's such a gold mine of wonderful information. Thank you all for participating.

Does anybody know anything about the style of this particular knife/ dagger? I liked it because it has the shape of a functional knife, not just a people–stabbing implement. if there's anybody here that can pin down provenance, I would greatly appreciate it.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2012, 05:21 PM

I would start to research daggers from the northern part, and while you are at it, try to make a search here on the forum for 'eared daggers', you may find something.

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I've been coming to this forum for years, and it's such a gold mine of wonderful information. Thank you all for participating.

Does anybody know anything about the style of this particular knife/ dagger? I liked it because it has the shape of a functional knife, not just a people–stabbing implement. if there's anybody here that can pin down provenance, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks very much Montino for the kind words on our forum (which we're all quite proud of) and likewise, I know I have very much appreciated your valuable contributions here.

As Jens has well noted, this particular style of hilt may be found in the northern parts of India, and I know I have seen these bifurcated pommels (in effect recalling the shashka) in Central Asian daggers as well. The blade of course closely follows the Persian kard, as well noted by Vandoo, and is similar to profiles found in Bukhara (Flindt, 1979, p.23, fig. 25c).
The same bifurcated pommel in strikingly similar section is seen on a 'zirah bhonk' dagger from N.India c.1725 (Pant CCX, CCXI) and the 'peaked' profile on your example is seen on 'revival' type shamshirs of 18th century Mughal use (Pant, p.132, fig. 374.

With these comparisons, I would say your dagger is of 18th century style, of kard form, and probably Mughal very likely produced in Rajasthan. It does seem to have some age, so a 19th c. presumption seems plausible.

In my opinion, a subtle nuance like the finger nock carved toward the pommel is something I would presume absent in modern reproductions, which as we know remains a thriving industry throughout Rajasthan.
Well played with the merchant who was clearly 'throwing out the hook', and saw you were no novice. Knowledge is the collectors most valuable weapon, and thats why we all work together to learn as much as we can....much to the dismay of many dealers and merchants who prey on the unwary.

All the best,
Jim

Montino Bourbon · 23rd February 2012, 06:36 PM

so I wouldn't be surprised if it came from around there. The person that I bought it from seemed to think that it came from a small kingdom to the North of Jaipur, Bikaner. The blade is not thick, the spine being no more than 2 mm thick, so I don't think of it so much as a “combat” weapon as much as a “knife”.

oh, and as I mentioned, I had my iPad with me with photographs of “real” and “modern” antiques, and examples of wootz and the modern mechanical Damascus produced in Rajasthan these days. Some of that, by the way, is quite nice. Just not antique.

22nd February 2012, 12:23 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Thank you, Ibrahim-Sahib! I am an Indian musician, disciple of one of the greatest musicians of the last century, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I went primarily to play and enjoy music, and I had a wonderful time. I'm also very much of an appreciators of weapons, and went as far as to take a course in forging swords last year. That experience changed my collecting forever; I was lucky enough to make an excellent Tanto, so my new collecting standard is that I will not buy something that isn't as good as what I can make myself. There are very nice pieces being made, but they are not up to the standards of 200 years ago... Yet. Their smiths are learning fast, though. I suspect that they might read up and start trying to make Wootz soon.... I shall try the vinegar etch later today and post the results here. Thank you so much for the info, and I have to mention that I really appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to participate in this forum. Montino

22nd February 2012, 10:29 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,118	Etch. A gentleman on another forum swears by pineapple juice to bring out the pattern, and I have had decent results in the past from worcester sauce.

23rd February 2012, 03:46 PM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Thank you so much! I've been coming to this forum for years, and it's such a gold mine of wonderful information. Thank you all for participating. Does anybody know anything about the style of this particular knife/ dagger? I liked it because it has the shape of a functional knife, not just a people–stabbing implement. if there's anybody here that can pin down provenance, I would greatly appreciate it.

23rd February 2012, 06:36 PM	#9
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I Purchased it in Jaipur, Rajasthan, so I wouldn't be surprised if it came from around there. The person that I bought it from seemed to think that it came from a small kingdom to the North of Jaipur, Bikaner. The blade is not thick, the spine being no more than 2 mm thick, so I don't think of it so much as a “combat” weapon as much as a “knife”. oh, and as I mentioned, I had my iPad with me with photographs of “real” and “modern” antiques, and examples of wootz and the modern mechanical Damascus produced in Rajasthan these days. Some of that, by the way, is quite nice. Just not antique.

22nd February 2012, 02:07 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Montino, I would say that the trend is staring to change in India from out and out reproductions towards rebuilds and restorations to maximise the value of 'old pieces' as collectors demand the genuine article. I would say that the knife you have bought falls into that category. I could be wrong as I am basing my thoughts on just the pictures of course, but it looks to me to have been recently polished/etched and I would suspect that the hilt slabs are new. However, that said it looks to have been done very well and unlike many I see, it wasn't a project that started with a very poor worn blade. Overall a rather nice thing. Best Gene

23rd February 2012, 04:19 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A weak solution of ferric chloride 3 parts distilled water to one part ferric chloride should do the trick you can either dip into the solution directly for 30 seconds or apply even coats until the desired effect is reached but be careful not to over etch it. Rinse with warm water to neutralize the solution dry and apply a drop of mineral oil to the blade.

23rd February 2012, 05:21 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I would start to research daggers from the northern part, and while you are at it, try to make a search here on the forum for 'eared daggers', you may find something.