Omani Sayf; markings for ID

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2012, 06:49 PM

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2012, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you very much Ibrahiim! That is great information regarding the perspective on the wolf as a talismanic totem, and better explains the favor toward the Passau wolf representation being used. Interestingly this had become the same purpose for its application on European sword blades, as one of the key elements of 'Passau Art'. It would seem that my observation on the negative characterization of dogs would clearly not include the wolf, and entirely different interpretations. The graphed 'beduh' boxes which typically enclosed talismanic numbers as you note were widely applied in material culture .

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th March 2012, 08:32 PM

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote
Jim[/COLOR]

Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread.

Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied.

Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently.

Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf.

The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se.

Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Devadatta · 4th March 2012, 09:03 PM

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

Iliad · 4th March 2012, 10:11 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you to you all for such interesting and informative responses to my posting. I appreciate the time taken by each one of you and I am now much better informed than I was! So much to learn!
Best regards as always
Brian

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th March 2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas · 5th March 2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th March 2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

Salaams A.alnakkas . Al Badawi swords. I assume you mean curved or straight with quillons and a battle blade...sharp edge and point ? I agree they are for fighting.(and for parading and dancing but this is a different weapon altogether from the Omani Sayf) I think it is a different case entirely from the dancing Omani straight Sayf which is not for fighting though it is tempting to suggest that this is a slashing weapon ... It is not. It is not a weapon. It is for dancing and mimic fights only. Your Quote I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.Unquote.. On thread and on Kattara for comments there are something in excess of 250 posts; many explaining the theory ...which you may wish to review. I dont think I have down graded Bedawi swords to dancing only...

Checking now...and I can confirm that I havent said that... maybe you misread something ??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas · 5th March 2012, 06:21 PM

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

4th March 2012, 08:32 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE= I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe. The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century. This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote Jim[/COLOR] Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread. Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied. Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently. Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf. The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se. Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad ! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th March 2012 at 08:45 PM.

21st February 2012, 06:49 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions. I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe. The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century. This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture. The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation. With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation. I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts. A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition. All the best, Jim

4th March 2012, 09:03 PM	#5
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above? Thanks!

4th March 2012, 10:11 PM	#6
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Gentlemen, Thank you to you all for such interesting and informative responses to my posting. I appreciate the time taken by each one of you and I am now much better informed than I was! So much to learn! Best regards as always Brian

5th March 2012, 06:21 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Salam Ibrahim, I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon. I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote) "1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)" This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-) "2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play." Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing. "3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them." This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary. "4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole." Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective. "5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else." The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat. Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.