A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Aqtai · 18th August 2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

One of the ‘swords’, seldom seen, is shown in Tirri’s book ‘Islamic Weapons’, page 331, figure 251. I have only seen only one other ‘sword’ like this, it was either at the Top Kapi Museum, or at the Army Museum in Istanbul, the hilt was different, but the ‘blade’ was like the one shown. These swords were made for penetrating mail or plates, or to find a weak point in the armour.

Hi Jens,

I've got some photos of that Indian 2-handed sword in the Royal Armouries. I'm afraid it looks nothing like the one you posted.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th August 2005, 01:14 PM

Hi Aqtai,

I like the swords you show, and hopefully I will one day see the museum in Leeds. The ‘sword’ I show in mail #40 is quite different from the swords you show. The blade is square or round, and not sharp at all, but it is pointed and the tip is reinforced. Once I was told, that ‘swords’ like this one was used to penetrate mail, when the enemy was laying on the ground.

Can anyone confirm that The Army Museum in Istanbul has such a ‘Panzerstecker’ in the collections? If yes, would it be possible to get a photo?

Aqtai · 19th August 2005, 07:51 PM

Those 4 photos are all of 1 sword

. It is the only one of of that type on display at the Royal Armouries.

It seems to be designed for cutting and thrusting like a European zwei-hander.

Tim Simmons · 20th August 2005, 06:53 PM

Hello B.I
This picture from the India Office Library And Records, which I have post on this site before might be of interest to you. Armed knights in the service of the Raja of Samthar in Central India possibly 1870s? It is rather posed note the chakram round one chaps ankle, the armour looks real enough which seems a trade off between protection and mobility. To me it looks like it has a main function against slashing weapons but sure it would also deflect some stabbing thrusts. When I was a little boy my mother would take me to the museum at Sandhurst, you could just walk in those days, wonderful Indian collection which I believe is now in the Army museum Chelsea. Tim

Tim Simmons · 21st August 2005, 05:02 PM

I just thought this picture of a late 19th century sikh priest rather interesting, note the katar and other weapons in his belt. Tim

B.I · 19th August 2005, 08:16 PM

i cant offer any more real information on these two handed swords, of which aqtais is a great example. most of the ones known, were of a later date, and relatively crude. most had a khanda style blade, and were of no real importance. this example is about as good as they ever got. as the armouries description says, its form is remeniscent of an early indian rapier (single handed). a small collection of these rapiers appeard some years ago, the best of which is shown in the paris 1988 exhibition. another of similar style, and great quality is in elgoods new book and is from the met. robert denotes a few pages on these, with an early 17thC image of them being fenced with.
the overall style of pommel and guard in the two-handed armouries piece is a direct influence from these earlier pieces. i would agree with their date of late 18thC, due to the similarity of the reinforced langets with the same found on firangis. the rapiers date from the late 16thC and so its strange (or not, given its india) to see such a similar style 200 years later.

the armouries piece came from the a.d.white collection, which was sold in almost complete state through a london saleroom in the early 80's. i say almost, as the best was hand picked out first ad went into a private collection before the sale. the collection was of immense importance, and has now spread into some of the most important collections, both national and private in existence today.
aqtai, if you go through khalilis collection, you will see pieces attributed to the same collection.

the armouries have a few pieces from this sale, as stated in the decription cards you show in the images.

19th August 2005, 01:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Aqtai, I like the swords you show, and hopefully I will one day see the museum in Leeds. The ‘sword’ I show in mail #40 is quite different from the swords you show. The blade is square or round, and not sharp at all, but it is pointed and the tip is reinforced. Once I was told, that ‘swords’ like this one was used to penetrate mail, when the enemy was laying on the ground. Can anyone confirm that The Army Museum in Istanbul has such a ‘Panzerstecker’ in the collections? If yes, would it be possible to get a photo?

19th August 2005, 07:51 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Those 4 photos are all of 1 sword . It is the only one of of that type on display at the Royal Armouries. It seems to be designed for cutting and thrusting like a European zwei-hander.

20th August 2005, 06:53 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,880	Hello B.I This picture from the India Office Library And Records, which I have post on this site before might be of interest to you. Armed knights in the service of the Raja of Samthar in Central India possibly 1870s? It is rather posed note the chakram round one chaps ankle, the armour looks real enough which seems a trade off between protection and mobility. To me it looks like it has a main function against slashing weapons but sure it would also deflect some stabbing thrusts. When I was a little boy my mother would take me to the museum at Sandhurst, you could just walk in those days, wonderful Indian collection which I believe is now in the Army museum Chelsea. Tim

21st August 2005, 05:02 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,880	I just thought this picture of a late 19th century sikh priest rather interesting, note the katar and other weapons in his belt. Tim

19th August 2005, 08:16 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i cant offer any more real information on these two handed swords, of which aqtais is a great example. most of the ones known, were of a later date, and relatively crude. most had a khanda style blade, and were of no real importance. this example is about as good as they ever got. as the armouries description says, its form is remeniscent of an early indian rapier (single handed). a small collection of these rapiers appeard some years ago, the best of which is shown in the paris 1988 exhibition. another of similar style, and great quality is in elgoods new book and is from the met. robert denotes a few pages on these, with an early 17thC image of them being fenced with. the overall style of pommel and guard in the two-handed armouries piece is a direct influence from these earlier pieces. i would agree with their date of late 18thC, due to the similarity of the reinforced langets with the same found on firangis. the rapiers date from the late 16thC and so its strange (or not, given its india) to see such a similar style 200 years later. the armouries piece came from the a.d.white collection, which was sold in almost complete state through a london saleroom in the early 80's. i say almost, as the best was hand picked out first ad went into a private collection before the sale. the collection was of immense importance, and has now spread into some of the most important collections, both national and private in existence today. aqtai, if you go through khalilis collection, you will see pieces attributed to the same collection. the armouries have a few pieces from this sale, as stated in the decription cards you show in the images.