Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all, Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.

SECOND SWORD

Odd for a few reasons...
1. Three Fullers.
2. Top rivvet hole filled whereas normally its empty and considered as the wrist strap hole. Filled, however, it cetainly gives a better supported hilt.
3. Squigles on the blade at the throat on one side only. If its letters I cannot decipher. Perhaps this is a running wolf insignia.

Right next door to Mutrah Souk is a fine example of an old archway similar to the design of the Hilt on Omani Battle Sword; Sayf. Pictured below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ This is where the wheel comes off the bike slightly !
THIRD SWORD.

Old Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.(half hilt missing) This sword raises a few questions viz;


1. European PDKG and asterisks ~An unknown Insignia on this blade.
2. Thin and narrow blade.

I would caution that this thinness and narrow aspect of blade is perhaps the only one like this I have seen. I have never before seen this insignia . It may be the missing link ie the so called 17th century european blade for the Old Omani Battle Sword. Note also that the capital letters appear as quite old gothic in style with flared ends as in the first sword at top of picture and in earlier post ( gothic revival ?) :cool
On research I note a few leads pointing to possible answers from Sotheby's -
1.A small-sword, late 18th century, with hollow-triangular blade etched and gilt with ... circa 1650, with slender double-edged blade, stamped 'Sahagon' within the ... cut with running wolf mark, the spurious date 1616, and the letters 'PDKG' on ...

2.An Indian sword (pata), 18th century, the letters 'PDKG' on ...etc etc

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David R]

... though generally the preferred work knife is a silver worked antique English Butter Knife (Sheffield Steel ) or the German equivalent from Solingen....Ibrahim al Balooshi sir, any chance of you posting a picture of one of these. I am fascinated by the idea of this sort of re use of a table knife..though given the quality of the steel of these old knives I am not too suprised.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

... though generally the preferred work knife is a silver worked antique English Butter Knife (Sheffield Steel ) or the German equivalent from Solingen....Ibrahim al Balooshi sir, any chance of you posting a picture of one of these. I am fascinated by the idea of this sort of re use of a table knife..though given the quality of the steel of these old knives I am not too suprised.

Salaams David R~ I have this on forum already see search type in butter knife see "are these shafras" and see # 5; my pictures include an Omani worked silver handled Sheffield butter knife.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Note to Forum. Recent conversion of Ethiopian (German blade) sword ready to be fitted with an Omani long SAYF hilt. WELDED TANG; ELONGATED, AND POMMEL ADDED. Muscat (Mutrah) 14 feb 2012.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to forum on restoring scabbards for Omani Battle Swords Sayf. Pictured here the distinctive hilt showing the join and 3 holes ~ the top hole as a collet with a loop to take the wrist strap. Often the hole is empty and it is uncertain if this was the case or that the collet pin detail was used...The latter giving a more sturdy hilt. On this thread are hilts with no collet pin and one with a rivvet instead suggesting no wrist strap or as a latter modification. Usually the pointed pommel is of 8 sections reflecting the 8 sided hilt however this one has 9.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Picture shows new scabbard making in process.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

"The Straight is a Sayf the Curved is a Kattara".


Salaams all, As a bump to the thread and to include a fairly startling fact, I add the following information on this particular blade that I would term not expensive but "interesting" since it carries a European number 563. The sword has lost about 5 inches of tip and is roughly flexible through perhaps 50 degrees ... Whilst it is a dancing sword it attains lower quality.
If this was part of a sword run or batch where are the other 562 examples and were there any more? 1000 or 5000 others? It could be a one off or locally made in ras al khaimah India or elsewhere however we will probably never know... As I say it is "interesting".

I throw in an old Map of Arabia by Jac Meurs.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Well hey Omani's turned out to like european blades eventually?:P

I like them, dont think they are european made personally but am no expert in the field. I think Omani's, like most Arabs, they have valued foreign blades and have imported + copied them. The pictures you add support that more then anything.

[A.alnakkas]

I think a balanced view is the best one. We cannot suggest that every single blade is native made nor can we suggest that every single fullered (and well made blade) is european. I think thats pointless to just place blades on such assumptions.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I think a balanced view is the best one. We cannot suggest that every single blade is native made nor can we suggest that every single fullered (and well made blade) is european. I think thats pointless to just place blades on such assumptions.

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Balance? I tell ya chasing this one down would unbalance most folks! Of the three swords however I am unphased since in the case of :

Number 1 ; I have identified the workshops that engineered the blade onto the Omani Hilt. They cant remember if it was welded but my bet is they did because in their collection and pictured by me is a welded blade that they admit to doing... The Ethiopian job awaiting an Omani hilt welded to extend the tang and include the Omani Pommel.

Number 2 ; The Old OMANI BATTLE SWORD. Not a problem there as it looks like a later model~ It originated in style about 1700 years ago but lasted til the early 20th C ... This sword is still being Iconized even now... we have one being dressed at this time including a new scabbard and silver furniture etc No doubt there are many versions of this weapon through the milenia but the style and origins to me seem clear.

Number 3 Sotheby have some research indicating the initials as India but that is open to examination ...The blade is weird.. I suspect Gothic revival .. I dont believe we need to worry too much about this one just yet though I would be delighted to discover that it is a European blade since I have searched for this based on rumour etc... It could be the 17th C replacement rumoured to have taken place. It is and was surely a pathetic blade and would be useless in a battle... I would rather have a wooden club ! It therefor appears as perhaps a one off ~ an Indian variant~ or a European replacement. It cannot have been that popular as Ive only seen this example. A freak even?

Therefor I am not able to conclude nor agree, in part, to your first paragraph though of course balance is vital; as is an open mind. Naturally if a blade is European I will declare that and where some new solidly based information crops up I will publish to forum...on that I have always been clear.

To date there is absolutely no concrete proof that European blades came onto the Omani scene to replace either the Old Battle Sayf or the flexible dancing blade Omani Sayf... save the crumb of detail and the outside chance that the sword shown at 3 above could be one exception.

The research goes on.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Well hey Omani's turned out to like european blades eventually?:P

I like them, dont think they are european made personally but am no expert in the field. I think Omani's, like most Arabs, they have valued foreign blades and have imported + copied them. The pictures you add support that more then anything.

Salaams A.alnakkas Ah well there you have it.

With the help of the Forum we have torn apart the myth on straight flexible Omani Sayf and rightly placed the Old Omani Battle Sayf into a corrected timeframe. The latter weapon regarded by many(with no proof) as variably 10th, 12th, 16th century with varying degrees of guess and error mixed. Some thought it Portuguese which would have placed it in the circa 1500 age bracket. No one had even heard of "The Funoon" . Ibn Jalanda... whos that? The Abbasids? Greek influence? Examples in the Topkapi Museum? Weapon freeze? Gradually the lid has been blown off...off that and the details about the straight flexible dancing sword "The Omani Sayf"... which has no European source whatsoever mainly because it isn't technically a fighting sword but a Religio-National Icon.

Oman did indeed also favour tasty curved swords and the Persian Shamshir, The Zanzibari Nimcha and the Karabela spring to mind where they are termed Kattara (though no one knows why?) in Oman.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim... Brilliant detail and bringing on the STAMM info is just outstanding thanks... On the date I just need to clarify that it isnt a date ... it looked like one and the owner was adamant that it was ... indeed it looks like 1708 but when you invert it ... IT READS SOLI Then looking closely you will see a capital N and some more undepherible caps...following that... thus obviously SOLINGEN .

I have identified this shop as the hilt fixer on this old blade thus it is a blade coming in at a tangent and being reworked welded tang and pommel (Omanised)by this shop about 10 years ago according to them and the owner who I know coincidentally as a previous client in Buraimi.... and who walked in unexpectedly in Muscat which was amazing...

Your detail about the PDKG is also well received and I noted a london auction house which had other stamps the same... The stamp style of Gothic capitals seemed to point to German manufacture though I add that guardedly.

Your detail ;

Quote "As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as entrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century".Unquote.

I still guard against since these are the only examples of these natures that I have seen in these formats. No others have cropped up. These are Omanised... as late as 10 years ago.

I therefore also guard against the supposition though look forward to upturning more evidence in the specific area of Old Omani Battle SAYF and Flexible Omani dancing SAYF trade blade replacements since actually we havent seen any yet.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Solingen sword at #229

Note to Forum; I saw today(in Muscat)that the The Solingen sword at #229 top picture has now been re scabbarded in Sennau. Regrettably the blade had been reground with a power grinder ... tutt tutt !! The blade is clearly marked in the old style of capitals SOLINGEN and to the reverse STAMM STAMM marked as at original description on #229 etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams~ Note to Forum ~ Bringing on some more swords following a Muscat Mutrah Souk visit today and yesterday. The general consensus is that big buyers are moving in and snapping up swords and artifacts for museums and collections up the gulf. There are some good items still around but the writing is on the wall. Its going fast.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ Note to Forum ~ and adding to the above post some blade marks to illustrate that Omani blades with marks are copied marks from European makers styles. Illustrated here are the two moon marks, cross and orb, stars and moon clusters (haven't seen a lot of those this is the first) and Passau Wolf... all copied. I have never seen an original European mark on an Omani Sword. Apologies for the occasional blurred pictures. I was wobbly not the camera !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Al Shamal]

Salam Ibrahiim,

Shokran for your very helpful insights!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Al Shamal

Salam Ibrahiim,

Shokran for your very helpful insights!

Salaams Al Shamal ~ Thanks, and I look forward to seeing more of your collection.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all, Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.

SECOND SWORD

Odd for a few reasons...
1. Three Fullers.
2. Top rivvet hole filled whereas normally its empty and considered as the wrist strap hole. Filled, however, it cetainly gives a better supported hilt.
3. Squigles on the blade at the throat on one side only. If its letters I cannot decipher. Perhaps this is a running wolf insignia.

Right next door to Mutrah Souk is a fine example of an old archway similar to the design of the Hilt on Omani Battle Sword; Sayf. Pictured below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Fascinating example, unusual to see this form with fullers. The mark seems to be script to me rather than a running wolf or similar. I think this has quite some age to it.

A piece I would love to own.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Fascinating example, unusual to see this form with fullers. The mark seems to be script to me rather than a running wolf or similar. I think this has quite some age to it.

A piece I would love to own.

Salaams Iain~ Yes most odd... I suspect this has been played with by the storeowners workshop ~ He wouldnt admit that but he wouldnt deny it either !! The third hole to the hilt was cleverly filled making the hilt much firmer in the grip ... It ought to have been empty as this is considered as the wrist strap hole.
Onto the scribble on the blade... I see two pairs of legs and various squigles as is often the running wolf applied by anyone who cares to copy this simple motif. Ive seen it before on swords in this store. It isn't script.
Without taking the hilt apart and grilling the storeowners workshops I cannot speak volumes on what could be a cleverly matched mishmash. It simply goes in my diary as interesting. I would like to own it too !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.