variation of tok chu

[David]

Originally Posted by keriswarisanpattani

hi david,

i believed nobody can claim this originally made by Tok Chu..same as for Keris Pandai Saras...nobody can claim it's made by pandai saras..but of course somebody can identify it's old or newly made....

Thank you for finally addressing this question. I understand that the term Keris Saras has come to be used to define a keris of a particular form which is said to be based upon a design created by Pandai Saras. We see many Keris Saras which obviously are not the creation of the famed pandai. It has also been my understanding that the same is true of Keris Tok Chu. My reason for pursuing this line is that in this thread you have presented 3 very different forms or dhapurs of keris and have claimed them to all be variations on Keris Tok Chu. I don't see how this is possible. None of them look like my own understanding of this dhapur which is more like the keris presented in BluErf's post #8. So i am wondering what possible claim these 3 keris have to the name Keris Tok Chu? If there was some provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu i could understand them holding the name (though they would still need some kind of name extension to distinguish them). But too my eye these look like 4 completely different dhapurs with BluErf's being the only one that fits the generally accepted design for this particular form.

[keriswarisanpattani]

Originally Posted by David

Thank you for finally addressing this question. I understand that the term Keris Saras has come to be used to define a keris of a particular form which is said to be based upon a design created by Pandai Saras. We see many Keris Saras which obviously are not the creation of the famed pandai. It has also been my understanding that the same is true of Keris Tok Chu. My reason for pursuing this line is that in this thread you have presented 3 very different forms or dhapurs of keris and have claimed them to all be variations on Keris Tok Chu. I don't see how this is possible. None of them look like my own understanding of this dhapur which is more like the keris presented in BluErf's post #8. So i am wondering what possible claim these 3 keris have to the name Keris Tok Chu? If there was some provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu i could understand them holding the name (though they would still need some kind of name extension to distinguish them). But too my eye these look like 4 completely different dhapurs with BluErf's being the only one that fits the generally accepted design for this particular form.

dear david,

like my earlier post, at beginning i was taught keris tok chu is a straight, broad as same like Bluerf's posting. but after met few seniors, attending seminars, forum about keris tok chu, it's have variations. And it's accepted here. it is believed that Tok Chu same like pandai saras did not produce only 1 type/dapur of keris. The problem and different with javanese keris, most northern keris, pattani etc did not classified according to dapur...if it's been classified, like keris tok chu dapur aaa, keris tok chu dapur bbb, it's much easier to understand.

my private collection for keris tok chu with wifiq/arabic

[David]

Originally Posted by keriswarisanpattani

dear david,

like my earlier post, at beginning i was taught keris tok chu is a straight, broad as same like Bluerf's posting. but after met few seniors, attending seminars, forum about keris tok chu, it's have variations. And it's accepted here. it is believed that Tok Chu same like pandai saras did not produce only 1 type/dapur of keris. The problem and different with javanese keris, most northern keris, pattani etc did not classified according to dapur...if it's been classified, like keris tok chu dapur aaa, keris tok chu dapur bbb, it's much easier to understand.

my private collection for keris tok chu with wifiq/arabic

Could you please explain then what indicators are used to identify it as a Tok Chu blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

I've noted the question but I an unable to reply at the moment. 6.am here and I'm off to answer some very different questions at a couple of meetings in Sydney.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've noted the question but I an unable to reply at the moment. 6.am here and I'm off to answer some very different questions at a couple of meetings in Sydney.

Thanks for noting the question Alan. I look forward to your response.
Just to extend this a bit further, when we talk about Keris Pandai Saras they all usually show the same indicators that allow us to make that designation. Some may be straight, some luk, but we expect to see the same diamond cross section, a generally slim blade and similar application of greneng. It is therefore clearly identifiable as a Keris Pandai Saras, regardless of whether it was actually made by the famed pandai himself.
At this point the O.P. has posted 4 keris that in my estimation show great differences in form far beyond the simple lurus/luk question. I note different cross-sections, greneng, even iron types. These 4 keris really couldn't be more dissimilar to my eyes. So if we do not hold the almost impossible provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu himself, how or why should they all hold the same type name?

[keriswarisanpattani]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for noting the question Alan. I look forward to your response.
Just to extend this a bit further, when we talk about Keris Pandai Saras they all usually show the same indicators that allow us to make that designation. Some may be straight, some luk, but we expect to see the same diamond cross section, a generally slim blade and similar application of greneng. It is therefore clearly identifiable as a Keris Pandai Saras, regardless of whether it was actually made by the famed pandai himself.
At this point the O.P. has posted 4 keris that in my estimation show great differences in form far beyond the simple lurus/luk question. I note different cross-sections, greneng, even iron types. These 4 keris really couldn't be more dissimilar to my eyes. So if we do not hold the almost impossible provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu himself, how or why should they all hold the same type name?

if they are not made by Tok Chu, of course there are masterpiece out there which is made by Tok Chu and been duplicated. It's may be easy to duplicate but not easy to claim and used Tok Chu name if there are no basic or evidence to do that.

what i believed and most of Kelantanese keris lover believed, Tok Chu (pandai) did not produce only 1 type of keris. But it's have variations which also called as Keris tok Chu.

another luk 3 tok chu keris owned by a royal family. new sheath.credit cikgu nasir

[Gustav]

Actually I suppose, the keris in Blu Erf's post (#8) is not correctly depicted, if I take a look on it's shadow. It could be longer then it seems. A pity we don't have more and proper pics of it.

As David stated, we see three absolutely different style keris in post #1, and material of them is of very different quality.

Here is one similar to post #19 with talismanic inscriptions.

[David]

Originally Posted by keriswarisanpattani

if they are not made by Tok Chu, of course there are masterpiece out there which is made by Tok Chu and been duplicated. It's may be easy to duplicate but not easy to claim and used Tok Chu name if there are no basic or evidence to do that.

what i believed and most of Kelantanese keris lover believed, Tok Chu (pandai) did not produce only 1 type of keris. But it's have variations which also called as Keris tok Chu.

another luk 3 tok chu keris owned by a royal family. new sheath.credit cikgu nasir

You will have to forgive me KWP, but this is the very first time i have ever heard such a thing. Not that Tok Chu didn't have any other styles, that goes without saying, just that any style perceived to have once been made by him would be referred to by his name. Most famous mpus or pandai that are honored by having a keris dhapur named after them generally only get one. I have no doubt that this is what you believe or you wouldn't be this insistent, but if truly most Kelantanese keris lovers believe this i would have thought it would have been brought up before. Can someone please tell me when Tok Chu was supposed to have lived?
Gustav, your example is beautiful. Until now i would have assumed it to be a straight carita keris...