Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th February 2012, 09:06 AM   #1
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default messer, kiegsmesser, grosses messer, langes messer

definition:
a messer can be a tool, also inside Houses, or a weapon, In principle, with an asymmetric grip and without a pommel, Instead, you often find a cap that covers the upper part of the handle. The blade is in first place suitable for cutting, but also generally can be used for thrusting.
it has generally a straight single-edged blade with a flat cross-section , but may also be curved. CF Seitz Balnkwaffen I.


There is a theory that knife-cutlers and swordsmiths had to stay within their own field and each keep a close eye on violations.
this implies that these large knives with a wide tang en riveted gripplates (technically speaking a knife) were made by knife cutlers.

I found a nice summary on wikipedia;
Messer (German for "knife", also großes Messer "great knife", Hiebmesser "cutting knife", Kriegsmesser "war knife", etc.) during the German Late Middle Ages and Renaissance (14th to 16th centuries) was a term for the class of single-edged bladed weapons, deriving from the medieval falchion and preceding the modern sabre.[1]

Its hilt included a straight cross-guard and Nagel (a nail-like–Nagel literally means 'nail'–protrusion that juts out from the right side of the cross-guard away from the flat of the blade) to protect the wielder's hands. Quite notable in its construction was the attachment of blade to the hilt via a slab tang sandwiched between two wooden grip plates that were pegged into place. Also of note is that many pommels were 'drawn out' or curved to one side of the hilt (edge side), a feature known as a "hat-shaped pommel". Extant examples seem to have an overall length of 30 inches with a 24.5 in (62 cm) blade, and a weight between 2–2.5 lb (0.91–1.1 kg).

The Messer was part of the curriculum of several fencing manuals in the 14th and 15th centuries, including Lecküchner, Codex Wallerstein and Albrecht Dürer.[2]

Although often confused with the Kriegsmesser ("War Knife"), it has to be clearly distinguished from the Grossmesser, being more than 1500 mm long and shaped more like a scimitar, originating as the Hungarian version of the German Zweihänder. Kriegsmessers were used by professional soldiers, typically Landsknechts. An example of this, also called a "Long Knife", is preserved in the Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer, Vienna.

1.^ Vesey, A.; B. Norman (1980). The rapier and small-sword, 1460-1820. Arms and Armour Press. pp. 68–71. ISBN 9780405130892.
2.^ Anglo, Sydney; B. Norman (2000). The martial arts of Renaissance Europe. Yale University Press. pp. 102–103. ISBN 9780300083521.

attached pictures of messers, from my collection.
Attached Images
          

Last edited by cornelistromp : 12th February 2012 at 01:10 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 09:31 AM   #2
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

messers in art.
Attached Images
           

Last edited by cornelistromp : 12th February 2012 at 01:11 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 10:51 AM   #3
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

......
Attached Images
   
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 10:55 AM   #4
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

some additional.
Attached Images
            

Last edited by cornelistromp : 12th February 2012 at 06:34 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 01:47 PM   #5
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Very good compilation, Jasper, thank you!

I'd like to add some more period artwork depicting messer and a hand-and-a-half sword from one of many Late Medieval Acts of the Saints, this particular one dated 1513.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
   
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 06:09 PM   #6
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

thanks michael very nice coloured drawings.
Attached Images
           

Last edited by cornelistromp : 12th February 2012 at 06:31 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 06:13 PM   #7
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

some xtra.
Attached Images
            

Last edited by cornelistromp : 12th February 2012 at 06:25 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2012, 06:21 PM   #8
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

some xtra
Attached Images
       
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2012, 07:35 PM   #9
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

a small messer.
Attached Images
           
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2012, 12:22 PM   #10
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2012, 05:41 PM   #11
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock


Hi Michael,

a very Nice one thank you, the style looks like a combination of the 3 posted in #1.

best,
Jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2012, 06:00 PM   #12
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

I know it does!

m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2012, 03:35 PM   #13
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

The Emperor Maximilian's famous jester, Kunz von der Rosen (+1519) with his Grosses Messer, portraryed by Daniel Hopfer in 1493; and another portrait of von der Rosen.

m
Attached Images
  
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2012, 08:04 AM   #14
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

messer in Cluny paris,the leftmost in the picture.

best,
Jasper
Attached Images
  
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2012, 02:11 PM   #15
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 305
Default

Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2012, 02:31 PM   #16
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Thanks, Broadaxe,

For pointing this out!

I attach some more close ups of this unusual piece.


m
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Matchlock : 20th June 2012 at 02:44 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2012, 07:25 PM   #17
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadaxe
Lat one isn't a messer, it's a hand-and-a-half saber in the swiss tradition. Hilt construction is of the sword type. Very famous, but not in Cluny, in Musee de l'armee.


it is also no saber!
saber; follow the definition of Heribert Seitz Blankwaffen p183.
the word saber has a magyaric origin szablya , Servian and russian sablja , french and english sabre, spanish sable italian sciabla . The saber is a weapon that is worn on the side, with long curved blade and asymmetrical, often slightly forward bent handle/grip.
the curvature of the saber offers an extension of the cutting edge and is for a combined blow and cutting function created.

The weapon under discussion has no curved blade and is therefor according to the definition of Seitz but also others fe JP Puype no saber!

further is the hilt construction also not of a sword type, because each sword has a pommel.This is necessary in order to be a sword and not another weapon.

It is a further development of the Falchion type and forerunner of the Messer.


In the swiss tradition? can you please explain what you mean with this?
Do you know Swiss art with this weapon depicted or similar Swiss weapons?

Indeed, the weapon is located in the musée lármee, my apologies.
best,
Attached Images
 

Last edited by cornelistromp : 20th June 2012 at 08:58 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2012, 09:30 PM   #18
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default A Grosses Messer Saber, ca. 1540

This piece could by identical to the one in post #4.
The blade is struck with a pi mark.

Sold Hermann Historica, Oct. 20, 2005.


m
Attached Images
    
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2012, 08:23 AM   #19
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Dorotheum 12 June lot 33, with thanks to Michael.
Attached Images
     
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2012, 11:33 AM   #20
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,346
Default

And where is Michael, Jasper ... do tou happen to know ?
A couple weeks since he has last been around
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2012, 05:26 PM   #21
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,346
Default

Your PM box is full, Jasper.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2013, 10:22 AM   #22
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

recently I came across this sword, found in a canal in the Netherlands
transitional type of sword to Messer, the long handle gives plenty of counter weight and takes over the function of the pommel. The handle has the construction of a sword handle so without plates and rivets.
a great advantage above a sword of this type is that the handle offers plenty of room for two-handed techniques.
the blade is doubled edged, thin making it more of a cutting sword.
with a cross of which the bottomricassopart forms the end of the grip also seen on some Katzbalger and cinqueda swords, to date late 15th century.
Attached Images
     

Last edited by cornelistromp : 20th January 2013 at 10:38 AM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th January 2013, 10:58 AM   #23
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 305
Default

Very strange, highly interesting! Do you have close-up photos of the hilt, and stats of the sword? I would like to see how the grip has been put together. There are circular grooves that show marks of binding cord or reinforcing ring/ferrule.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st January 2013, 09:53 AM   #24
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

the dimension unfortunately I have not measured, but best I can reproduce on experience;
griplength 20-22cm and 105-110cm allover.
the canalures of the ricassoblok are also cut in the grip, fm there are petaled flowers punched in the grip as decoration.
In the middle of the grip was still a piece of the original rope available.
The iron plate ring at the end of the grip was gone.
furthermore there is a molded pommel plate and the tang is peened.

this is the first time I have encountered a sword with this type of construction. First I thought that this was an early sword Oakeshott type XIV 1300-1320 where later in 1500, in his second/third life a new grip was added. However after inspection in hands, my opinion is that the sword has been designed this way, most probably around 1500. The blade is probably dated, next to the sun/cross are gothic digits engaved.
Iam working on it, it is not easy, Hope Michael will be back with us soon.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by cornelistromp : 21st January 2013 at 03:36 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2013, 03:44 PM   #25
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

I have the actual dimensions;
allover 108cm
blade 86cm
original cross 20cm/2cm is missing
grip 20cm
ricasso + steel part of grip 2cm
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2014, 03:24 PM   #26
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

Attached Images
   
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2014, 04:08 PM   #27
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Another, with a straight but shortened blade, was also sold Bonhams on Nov 30, 2011.

m
Attached Images
   
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2014, 10:39 AM   #28
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

The following excavated water find, actually is not a messer because it has a pommel and no riveted grip.
but due to the single edged blade there are similarities with the KriegsMesser.
this type can be seen as the precursor of the extremely rare two handed Katzbalger, with 8-shaped guard and similar mushroom shaped pommel.

proabaly from practical considerations the very long parryrods were bent to become less wide in a eight shaped figure, making them more manageable in close combat,while the balance is maintained

landsknecht sword late 15th Century
lenght 114CM
crosswidth 32CM
Attached Images
  
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2014, 10:24 AM   #29
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

KHM Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer, Vienna, Austria NR 173 CIRCA 1490
Attached Images
    
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th January 2015, 05:10 PM   #30
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 889
Default

...
Attached Images
 
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.