Crossbow.

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim,

No cyphers in Arabic script are known to have been used in Europe before the early 1400's, so please forget about the theory that it might be that old.

If you are interested in the shape and form of 15th c. Gothic crossbows, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7516

You will at once see the differences.

And: I cannot remember seeing any other trap crossbows at the moment, they seem to be quite rare indeed.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

I have once seen one with a screw clamping mechanism, all made of iron, also the stock.

I'm not sure if this is a trap crossbow trap, because these two crossbows seem to be very unstable if you place them down in postition, also the trigger mechanism is not as you would expect from a trap crossbow.
where is the eye to tie the trigger-rope to?


I think it's a crossbow that can shoot heavier arrow-projectiles away, 18thC or 19thC not earlier.

this theory unfortunately I can not substantiate with literature.

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... I think it's a crossbow that can shoot heavier arrow-projectiles away ...

Reason why it is provided with a "muzzle" extension?

.

[Jim MacDougald]

Thank you, Matchlock. I need to send some detailed photos of my crossbow so that you can see how similar it is to the ones you referred me to. Photos will follow in a later post with some more explanation.
I'm really confused about the date on the trigger. While 1335 seems too early, 1835 seems way too late. The second number on the crossbow is definitely either a "3" or an "8". I have found no examples of inscriptions from the 1800's with entries separated by colons ,:, but I have seen them in 14th and 15th century examples. Also, I have not found other 19th century crossbows constructed in such a primitive way. The crossbow that launched this thread clearly has some machined, countersunk screws on it. It looks almost modern, and LOOKS like an 1800's or later weapon. Mine looks much older, especially the "wormed" wood. Mine doesn't have any machined screws in/on it, either.
Re: Arabic numerals in Europe. (This comes from on-line Wikipedia): "The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976. From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France. Fibonacci, a mathematician born in the Republic of Pisa who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Indian numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was written in 1202".
In spite of the above, I agree that it would be unlikely (but not impossible) that a European crossbow-maker would use Arabic numbers, as I agree that Arabic numbers weren't widespread in Europe until the 15th century.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Jim MacDougald

Thank you, Matchlock. I need to send some detailed photos of my crossbow so that you can see how similar it is to the ones you referred me to. Photos will follow in a later post with some more explanation.
I'm really confused about the date on the trigger. While 1335 seems too early, 1835 seems way too late. The second number on the crossbow is definitely either a "3" or an "8". I have found no examples of inscriptions from the 1800's with entries separated by colons ,:, but I have seen them in 14th and 15th century examples. Also, I have not found other 19th century crossbows constructed in such a primitive way. The crossbow that launched this thread clearly has some machined, countersunk screws on it. It looks almost modern, and LOOKS like an 1800's or later weapon. Mine looks much older, especially the "wormed" wood. Mine doesn't have any machined screws in/on it, either.
Re: Arabic numerals in Europe. (This comes from on-line Wikipedia): "The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976. From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France. Fibonacci, a mathematician born in the Republic of Pisa who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Indian numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was written in 1202".
In spite of the above, I agree that it would be unlikely (but not impossible) that a European crossbow-maker would use Arabic numbers, as I agree that Arabic numbers weren't widespread in Europe until the 15th century.

Jim, I can but speak from my over 30 years of study in Romanic, Gothic and Renaissance works of art, mainly arms and armor, with special emphasis on original dates and the shape of their numerals in consistency with the appearance of the respective dated object.
My archive on 15th/16th c. original dates alone comprises almost 100 mb. Believe me, none of either the cyphers or the letters on your crossbow is of a form any earlier than the 18th c.

For comparison, I attach images of the earliest known Northern European date I know of, 1407, from the groundbreaking plate of the Holy Spirit Church in Landshut, Bavaria, not far from where I live. Even though this is from the early 15th c., Roman (m) and Arabic (407, mind the High Gothic form of the cyphers!!!) numerals are still combined - and just compare this genuine Gothic Latin script to the letters on your crossbow!
And please note that the words are not separated by colons but by centrally placed square periods.

Apart from that, I have never seen such a thing as a date on trigger. Dates generally appear on more prominent parts of an item.

I do have a completely different idea though and will do some more research before posting it.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Ok, I announced it and here it is.

There are a few North Italian all-steel crossbows known retaining their original all-steel quarrels (crossbow bolts), some of these crossbows fitted with a rounded pistol-grip butt like yours, and a few others with a two- or three-link chain instead of the usual string. While the one attached, dated 1562 and signed by the maker Opera de Renaldo de Visin da Asolo (preserved in the collection of the Ducal Palace in Venice, is 66.3 cm long, various similar are much smaller and are nowadays believed to have been built especially for carrying secretly and in order to use for assassinations.

A period of origin of the first half to the mid 16th c. seems to be common to all members of this very special group of North Italian crossbows. The shape of the rear sight on the attached crossbow is identical to rear sights found on contemporary matchlock and wheellock muskets.

Any thoughts?

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

I tried some photoshopping on Ericlaude's images; though the colors are not correct, more details have become visible, I hope.
Telling from the both general shape and construction and the bolts/screws or rivets used, I should not date it before the 19th c. Thus this might be one of the numerous Historismus (Victorian) copies, including that certain amount of both style mingling and fantasy characteristic of that period), of Renaissance originals like the one in Venice.

As the iron surfaces clearly show significant differences in rust and pitting I assume that some older and not belonging parts were associated.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

FRom post # 26:

There are a few North Italian all-steel crossbows known retaining their original all-steel quarrels (crossbow bolts), some of these crossbows fitted with a rounded pistol-grip butt like yours, and a few others with a two- or three-link chain instead of the usual string. While the one attached, dated 1562 and signed by the maker Opera de Renaldo de Visin da Asolo (preserved in the collection of the Ducal Palace in Venice, is 66.3 cm long, various similar are much smaller and are nowadays believed to have been built especially for carrying secretly and in order to use for assassinations.

A period of origin of the first half to the mid 16th c. seems to be common to all members of this very special group of North Italian crossbows. The shape of the rear sight on the attached crossbow is identical to rear sights found on contemporary matchlock and wheellock muskets.

Michael

I am convinced that the present cord string on this small crossbow dated 1562 is a replacement of the original three-link iron 'string'.

m

[cornelistromp]

to support longer and (top) heavier arrows.