Crossbow.

[Matchlock]

Hi Kronck,

I was waiting to see that insinuation to modern trap shooting using shotguns. Actually today's trap shooting has nothing to do with its muzzleloading predecessors.

In the days of old, trap guns (and much more seldomly trap crossbows) were in use since at least the development of the wheellock in the 16th c. They were installed in the woods as well as at fortified places, cocked and primed and ready to fire in order to harm either animals or people releasing their mechanism by chance. The German terms are Legebüchse (trap gun) and Legearmbrust (trap crossbow) respectively.

Best,
Michael

[Jim MacDougald]

Thanks, Norman, for your help with IPhoto. I have resized the photos and am attaching one of the crossbow, one of the inscription, and a hand-drawn replica of the inscription, because the photo isn't the same as looking at it under a magnifying glass. When looking at the photo of the inscription, you will notice the battered look of the construction of the surface on which the inscription was placed. Pretty primitive! I can send more photos if anyone is interested, showing more detail The wood is very "wormy", and the construction of the trigger mechanism and the "nut" that hold the steel bowstring are identical to traditional crossbows from the 15th century, as is the "Goat's Foot" lever. In addition, the inscription has elements that are separated by colons, a tradition in the 14th and 15th centuries. Why would a 19th century trap crossbow be so crudely built, and containing 14th century mechanisms rather than the much better trigger mechanisms designed in the 1600's? "Matchlock"..., thanks for your comment. Have you seen others like this? Do you know where they can be found? Are there any in any books or museums that you know of? When I first contacted Royal Armouries, they told me they had never seen one like this before. Many thanks for you help.

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim,

No cyphers in Arabic script are known to have been used in Europe before the early 1400's, so please forget about the theory that it might be that old.

If you are interested in the shape and form of 15th c. Gothic crossbows, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7516

You will at once see the differences.

And: I cannot remember seeing any other trap crossbows at the moment, they seem to be quite rare indeed.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

I have once seen one with a screw clamping mechanism, all made of iron, also the stock.

I'm not sure if this is a trap crossbow trap, because these two crossbows seem to be very unstable if you place them down in postition, also the trigger mechanism is not as you would expect from a trap crossbow.
where is the eye to tie the trigger-rope to?


I think it's a crossbow that can shoot heavier arrow-projectiles away, 18thC or 19thC not earlier.

this theory unfortunately I can not substantiate with literature.

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... I think it's a crossbow that can shoot heavier arrow-projectiles away ...

Reason why it is provided with a "muzzle" extension?

.

[Jim MacDougald]

Thank you, Matchlock. I need to send some detailed photos of my crossbow so that you can see how similar it is to the ones you referred me to. Photos will follow in a later post with some more explanation.
I'm really confused about the date on the trigger. While 1335 seems too early, 1835 seems way too late. The second number on the crossbow is definitely either a "3" or an "8". I have found no examples of inscriptions from the 1800's with entries separated by colons ,:, but I have seen them in 14th and 15th century examples. Also, I have not found other 19th century crossbows constructed in such a primitive way. The crossbow that launched this thread clearly has some machined, countersunk screws on it. It looks almost modern, and LOOKS like an 1800's or later weapon. Mine looks much older, especially the "wormed" wood. Mine doesn't have any machined screws in/on it, either.
Re: Arabic numerals in Europe. (This comes from on-line Wikipedia): "The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976. From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France. Fibonacci, a mathematician born in the Republic of Pisa who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Indian numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was written in 1202".
In spite of the above, I agree that it would be unlikely (but not impossible) that a European crossbow-maker would use Arabic numbers, as I agree that Arabic numbers weren't widespread in Europe until the 15th century.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Jim MacDougald

Thank you, Matchlock. I need to send some detailed photos of my crossbow so that you can see how similar it is to the ones you referred me to. Photos will follow in a later post with some more explanation.
I'm really confused about the date on the trigger. While 1335 seems too early, 1835 seems way too late. The second number on the crossbow is definitely either a "3" or an "8". I have found no examples of inscriptions from the 1800's with entries separated by colons ,:, but I have seen them in 14th and 15th century examples. Also, I have not found other 19th century crossbows constructed in such a primitive way. The crossbow that launched this thread clearly has some machined, countersunk screws on it. It looks almost modern, and LOOKS like an 1800's or later weapon. Mine looks much older, especially the "wormed" wood. Mine doesn't have any machined screws in/on it, either.
Re: Arabic numerals in Europe. (This comes from on-line Wikipedia): "The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976. From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France. Fibonacci, a mathematician born in the Republic of Pisa who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Indian numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was written in 1202".
In spite of the above, I agree that it would be unlikely (but not impossible) that a European crossbow-maker would use Arabic numbers, as I agree that Arabic numbers weren't widespread in Europe until the 15th century.

Jim, I can but speak from my over 30 years of study in Romanic, Gothic and Renaissance works of art, mainly arms and armor, with special emphasis on original dates and the shape of their numerals in consistency with the appearance of the respective dated object.
My archive on 15th/16th c. original dates alone comprises almost 100 mb. Believe me, none of either the cyphers or the letters on your crossbow is of a form any earlier than the 18th c.

For comparison, I attach images of the earliest known Northern European date I know of, 1407, from the groundbreaking plate of the Holy Spirit Church in Landshut, Bavaria, not far from where I live. Even though this is from the early 15th c., Roman (m) and Arabic (407, mind the High Gothic form of the cyphers!!!) numerals are still combined - and just compare this genuine Gothic Latin script to the letters on your crossbow!
And please note that the words are not separated by colons but by centrally placed square periods.

Apart from that, I have never seen such a thing as a date on trigger. Dates generally appear on more prominent parts of an item.

I do have a completely different idea though and will do some more research before posting it.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

to support longer and (top) heavier arrows.